HP Prime too complicated

[JSBach]

Hello,

IMO the HP Prime is a mighty but much too complicated tool.

It is marketed as a pupil's (or student's) device, who are to learn mathematics or physics.
But in the time they need to learn how to use such a calculator including CAS, graphics, programming, they better learn mathematics itself.

My daughter (13 years old, she likes mathematics) didn't even look at her calculator's manual, she simply isn't interested.

Personally I'm glad her school recommends the Casio fx-991, a non-CAS, non-graphics & non-programming calculator that cost us less then 20 €, and is IMHO more powerful and complicated than is needed. If her class should need one of the advanced possibilities of the Prime (e.g. to draw a function), they can do the same as you would do in real life: They can use software on a PC, notebook, tablet, smart phone, etc. (or even draw by hand, as I did in school).

JSBach,

PS: I used in school my father's old HP-35, and when he got an HP-41CV, I got his HP-67.
The HP-67 was nicer than the HP-35, but the HP-35 surely was OK: You sometimes had to convert DEG<>RAD by hand, and you had to decide, when a small number should be zero. (My colleagues mostly had TI-30).

[Voldemar]

I do not think so. HP Prime is easy to master. I think HP 50g is more complicated.
P.S. I also have a daughter. She is 13 years old. And she has Casio fx-991.

[JSBach]

(07-11-2018 02:14 PM)Voldemar Wrote:  I do not think so. HP Prime is easy to master. I think HP 50g is more complicated.
P.S. I also have a daughter. She is 13 years old. And she has Casio fx-991.

Yes, it is simpler than the 50g.
But the 50g isn't a pupil's calculator - it is an engineer's calculator.

JSBach

:-)

[Voldemar]

HP Prime is good for engeneers too. Yes, Prime is good for pupils, it has an exam mode, but it has a lot of mathematics that pupils do not need at all.

[compsystems]

Eng (Google translator)

The hp-prime is very complicated because the development group has not been able to unify the numerical mode (HOME) with the symbolic mode (CAS). I propose solutions but they have not been taken into account, such as:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-10786.html

The researchers in mathematical education affirm that from the primary level algebra must be taught, since algebra is the area of ​​mathematics that is used in almost all other branches of mathematics (see godino) http://www.ugr.es/~jgodino/ this implies that if the teacher wants to incorporate calculators in the classroom, it should be with calculators with CAS and not only numerical calculators, simple calculators like CASIO, NUMWORKS that do not incorporate CAS are not suitable for teaching- learning of current mathematics, but calculators with CAS should be used to improve algebraic reasoning, not to return results. There are still no teachers who are trained to incorporate the technology of calculators with CAS in the classroom.
The hp-prime CAS is not only used for the primary and secondary levels, but also tertiary (university)


SPN (original)
La hp-prime es muy complicada por que el grupo de desarrollo no ha podido unificar el modo numérico (HOME) con el modo simbólico (CAS). Yo propongo soluciones pero no han sido tenido en cuenta, como por ejemplo:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-10786.html

Los investigadores en educación matemática, afirman que desde el nivel primario deba enseñarse algebra, ya que el algebra el área de la matemática que se la utiliza en casi todas las demás ramas de la matemática (ver godino) http://www.ugr.es/~jgodino/ esto implica que si el docente desea incorporar calculadoras en el aula de clase, debe ser con calculadoras con CAS y no solo calculadoras numéricas, las calculadoras simples como CASIO, NUMWORKS que no incorporen CAS no son aptas para la enseñanza-aprendizaje de la matemática actual, Pero las calculadoras con CAS deben usarse para mejorar el razonamiento algebraico, no para que retornen resultados. Aun no existen docentes que estén capacitados para incorporar la tecnología de las calculadoras con CAS en el aula de clase.
EL CAS de la hp-prime no solo sirve para los niveles primario y secundario, sino también terciario (universitario)

[pier4r]

For what I learned in school and uni, a fx991 (or a sharp 506w) would be a monster. Programmable things would be needed only to automate tasks that are well understood.

"but plotting curves and understading them!". Nothing better than letting the powerful scientific calculator help you with a formula and a couple of single letter variables and you plot it manually. There is fun and you grasp the concept even better (for example: "do I really need to plot all the points to see how the function behaves?", given that is not a tricky function).

[Joe Horn]

(07-11-2018 01:39 PM)JSBach Wrote:  IMO the HP Prime is a mighty but much too complicated tool.

It is marketed as a pupil's (or student's) device, who are to learn mathematics or physics.
But in the time they need to learn how to use such a calculator including CAS, graphics, programming, they better learn mathematics itself.

Prime is not a single tool, but rather a toolbox containing many tools; you only need to learn how to use those tools which you need. You don't have to learn the whole machine.

[Jean-Baptiste Boric]

(07-11-2018 01:39 PM)JSBach Wrote:  IMO the HP Prime is a mighty but much too complicated tool.

It is marketed as a pupil's (or student's) device, who are to learn mathematics or physics.
But in the time they need to learn how to use such a calculator including CAS, graphics, programming, they better learn mathematics itself.

My daughter (13 years old, she likes mathematics) didn't even look at her calculator's manual, she simply isn't interested.

Personally I'm glad her school recommends the Casio fx-991, a non-CAS, non-graphics & non-programming calculator that cost us less then 20 €, and is IMHO more powerful and complicated than is needed.

You are comparing a €20 calculator for middle school against a >€120 top-of-the-line calculator for university/engineering workloads and complaining that the latter is way overkill for your 13 years old daughter whereas the former does the job just as well. That's like comparing a SS-520 rocket with a Space Shuttle and complaining that the latter takes $1,500,000,000 to deliver a 1kg payload to orbit while the former only takes $500,000 and does the job just as well.

[Tim Wessman]

I would also like to point out that we have schools using Prime at 4th grade to do basic statistics charts, and even some even earlier using the advanced grapher to teach number lines!

You are correct that the whole machine may be too complicated, but operating it is definitely not and there are many, many uses even for very early math learning that helps rather then hurts.

[fablab48]

this calculator is not so bad.
but, !!!

after serveral crash, it was decided to not allow this machine,
the reason was bug during exam

in my opinion, i decided to stop using it, but for other reason :
-the keyboard colors ( new one seem better, but i have the old revision)
- there is no serial port --> for an electronician this is critical

i firstly take a look to the "NUMWORK CALCULATOR", this machine have a serial port, it's particularly quick and there is the communication port

BUT, !!!
there is no RPL

and this is a critical point for me too

so,
i decided to return to my HP-48-GX,
(and i bought 5 others on internet, there are cheap in France, about 70 euros).

The HP-PRIME micro own several communication port, we can see it on the PCB.

---TO THE HP TEAM ---
add a serial port connector like T.I and NUMWORKS do and i will return to PRIME.

[Voldemar]

(07-12-2018 08:17 AM)fablab48 Wrote:  the "NUMWORK CALCULATOR", this machine have a serial port

???
Why are you not satisfied with the Prime usb port?

[fablab48]

USB , lol
where is the RPN command like USB_send();

then usb cannot communicate with electronic board easyly

[DrD]

(07-12-2018 10:10 AM)Voldemar Wrote:  Why are you not satisfied with the Prime usb port?

A reason for dissatisfaction with the Prime usb port is lack of I/O communication commands. (Suppose you wanted to use a data acquisition product, for example, to collect weather information, such as temperature, wind speed, etc. There is currently, no way to send RTU interrogation commands, or process returned message content).

To have this valuable capability would open up vast new market opportunities, from engineer and technician professionals, as well as amateurs, who NEED this capability! This rises to number one on my wish list for an enhanced prime!

-Dale-

[Voldemar]

(07-12-2018 11:02 AM)DrD Wrote:  A reason for dissatisfaction with the Prime usb port is lack of I/O communication commands.

Understood.

[JSBach]

(07-11-2018 04:10 PM)compsystems Wrote:  Eng (Google translator)

The hp-prime is very complicated because the development group has not been able to unify the numerical mode (HOME) with the symbolic mode (CAS). I propose solutions but they have not been taken into account, such as:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-10786.html

The researchers in mathematical education affirm that from the primary level algebra must be taught, since algebra is the area of ​​mathematics that is used in almost all other branches of mathematics (see godino) http://www.ugr.es/~jgodino/ this implies that if the teacher wants to incorporate calculators in the classroom, it should be with calculators with CAS and not only numerical calculators, simple calculators like CASIO, NUMWORKS that do not incorporate CAS are not suitable for teaching- learning of current mathematics, but calculators with CAS should be used to improve algebraic reasoning, not to return results. There are still no teachers who are trained to incorporate the technology of calculators with CAS in the classroom.
The hp-prime CAS is not only used for the primary and secondary levels, but also tertiary (university)

I agree with you that algebra is very very important.
But I think algebra should be learned "by hand", with paper and pencil, so pupils will get a deeper knowledge. -> no CAS needed.

Concerning university:
In exams you often are not allowed to use programmable calculators -> no Prime.
In other situations (homework etc) when you need a CAS (or advanced statistics or programming) you easily can use a PC.

JSBach

[Tim Wessman]

Yes it is missing serial communication or some usb_send. Is devoting all the resources to that going to increase sales over all the other potential things we could be doing instead (all of which seem the be asked for FAR more then any small subgroup of people) when you have a RIDICULOUS number of hobbyist project boards, custom controllers, and things like raspberry pi for a stupidly cheap price available?

[JSBach]

(07-11-2018 09:53 PM)Jean-Baptiste Boric Wrote:  

(07-11-2018 01:39 PM)JSBach Wrote:  IMO the HP Prime is a mighty but much too complicated tool.

It is marketed as a pupil's (or student's) device, who are to learn mathematics or physics.
But in the time they need to learn how to use such a calculator including CAS, graphics, programming, they better learn mathematics itself.

My daughter (13 years old, she likes mathematics) didn't even look at her calculator's manual, she simply isn't interested.

Personally I'm glad her school recommends the Casio fx-991, a non-CAS, non-graphics & non-programming calculator that cost us less then 20 €, and is IMHO more powerful and complicated than is needed.

You are comparing a €20 calculator for middle school against a >€120 top-of-the-line calculator for university/engineering workloads and complaining that the latter is way overkill for your 13 years old daughter whereas the former does the job just as well. That's like comparing a SS-520 rocket with a Space Shuttle and complaining that the latter takes $1,500,000,000 to deliver a 1kg payload to orbit while the former only takes $500,000 and does the job just as well.

Yes. The Space Shuttle was way too expensive. That's the reason they stopped it.

And that is the point:
The Prime and its many features are overkill (and they make the use and the development more complex, e.g. the differences between Home mode and CAS mode).

At school and at university it is enough to get a good engineering calculator and additionally get software for CAS, statistics, programming languages like Python, Java, ...

JSBach

PS: I knew some engineers who stopped buying HP calculators after the HP-41CX and the HP-42S, because their programs didn't run on HP-48,... let alone the Prime. They only wanted to run their (self-written) programs and for other calculations HP41 & HP-42 was enough.

[fablab48]

(07-12-2018 11:57 AM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  Yes it is missing serial communication or some usb_send. Is devoting all the resources to that going to increase sales over all the other potential things we could be doing instead (all of which seem the be asked for FAR more then any small subgroup of people) when you have a RIDICULOUS number of hobbyist project boards, custom controllers, and things like raspberry pi for a stupidly cheap price available?

T.I do it so probably you have skill to do do it !!!!
lol
https://www.amazon.fr/Algorithmique-prog...2212676220

[roadrunner]

I've been an engineer since 1979 and around engineers my whole life. I can't think of one time I would have wanted to hook a device up to a calculator to log data; other than just for fun. But that's just me, I can see how that might be useful in an academic environment though.

-road

[Tim Wessman]

On the contrary - separating HOME and CAS has some very concrete pedagogical reasons behind it and is not an example of "complexity". It is not done for a "convenience" or "technical", but rather it is trying to create mathematical thinking. In all our training materials we give to AP teachers, educators and similar, we focus heavily on how they need to constantly be asking the students "what is the type of thing you are looking at?", "what type of problem are you solving?", "are you looking at numbers? graphs? or symbolic?".

In other words, it is training you to be thinking mathematically. There is a lot of research around this which is why for 20+ years the recommend way of teaching math is to follow that method. Prime was designed from the ground up to be creating mathematical conversations and thinking.

If they can't understand the difference between "am i solving an equation" and "am i solving a number" or more fundamentally "what is a number?" then they are much less likely to be able to understand math. Black box calculators ("i put some stuff in and get my answer out") are a huge problem. Prime was designed to promote thinking about what you are doing, and more importantly WHY you are doing it, so that you will be able to understand math.

It really is simple to use once you learn a few basic rules. It also just happens to be able to scale up far past any other calculator type system on the market. It is also the EASIEST to learn and use at the same time.