The Prime is just an Expensive Toy

[Claudio L.]

(12-08-2019 04:47 PM)medwatt Wrote:  ... the Ti-89 can do more than the Prime simply because you can find a package for almost anything on the Ti-89...

... There's an app out there that can do just that ...

I think these 2 short quotes summarize the reason of your frustration. Your expectation wasn't met because there simply isn't an electrical engineering community built around the Prime.
This is not a deficiency on the device, it's a sign of the times. The HP50g and TI89's fully compatible ancestors were born at a time where when you bought a computer and turned it on, all you saw on the screen was a prompt and a blinking cursor. You were forced to read, educate yourself first, then use the machine, and by "using" I mean starting your BASIC/Pascal/C interpreter/compiler and coding your own programs or using somebody else's hand-coded programs. Same thing for calculators: people read, got educated and started creating their own programs, sharing them with a large community of professionals doing the same.

Fast forward to after 2010: People expect to use a device using nothing but their intuition. Read? Learn? how antiquated. They also expect the device to have an existing online repository of programs already coded and working to solve their every problem, because nobody bothers getting their hands dirty and coding anything anymore. This is a generation of "downloaders", that expect everything to be already done and served on a silver platter in a matter of 2 clicks.
The HP Prime was simply born too late to develop that kind of repository because nowadays people want that repository to "simply exists" as if it took no effort to create one. It has no backwards compatibility to any "ancestor", so there's no big repository.

This is ALSO the reason why everybody wants Python. No, Python is not superior to any other language. Once you learn one or 2 coding languages you realize they are all very similar, and with a couple of hours to familiarize yourself with the syntax you could be using ANY language in no time (including PPL). Then why Python? Because... they want to download the code already written! People nowadays can't be bothered to port a simple subroutine from one language to another, they just want to download it and have it running on a single click. They don't want Python to code in Python, merely to download existing Python code and run it. And because Python is popular, the repository is large.

So don't try to explain this user the pros and cons of a device. Unless he gets a big repository where he can download his app to do Bode plots and Fourier transforms with an intuitive UI he will not be satisfied. It's just a generational thing.

[Albert Chan]

(12-13-2019 03:56 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  Fast forward to after 2010: People expect to use a device using nothing but their intuition.

I would say that people are *forced* to use a device using nothing but their intuition.
My laptop has more pages devoted to warranty info than the 1 page "manual".

[StephenG1CMZ]

Where is the upvote button ?
Even my pdf reader comes without any pdf documentation!

[smp]

(12-13-2019 03:56 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  <...snip...>
The HP Prime was simply born too late ... It has no backwards compatibility to any "ancestor", so there's no big repository.
<...snip...>

Excellent analysis, Claudio! Thanks very much for posting this.

smp

[CyberAngel]

(12-13-2019 09:40 PM)smp Wrote:  

(12-13-2019 03:56 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  <...snip...>
The HP Prime was simply born too late ... It has no backwards compatibility to any "ancestor", so there's no big repository.
<...snip...>

Excellent analysis, Claudio! Thanks very much for posting this.

smp

I did not understand this before
Claudio made me see.
Not everyone wants to program
or learn to program or learn a new syntax

[medwatt]

(12-13-2019 03:56 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  

(12-08-2019 04:47 PM)medwatt Wrote:  ... the Ti-89 can do more than the Prime simply because you can find a package for almost anything on the Ti-89...

... There's an app out there that can do just that ...

I think these 2 short quotes summarize the reason of your frustration. Your expectation wasn't met because there simply isn't an electrical engineering community built around the Prime.
This is not a deficiency on the device, it's a sign of the times. The HP50g and TI89's fully compatible ancestors were born at a time where when you bought a computer and turned it on, all you saw on the screen was a prompt and a blinking cursor. You were forced to read, educate yourself first, then use the machine, and by "using" I mean starting your BASIC/Pascal/C interpreter/compiler and coding your own programs or using somebody else's hand-coded programs. Same thing for calculators: people read, got educated and started creating their own programs, sharing them with a large community of professionals doing the same.

Fast forward to after 2010: People expect to use a device using nothing but their intuition. Read? Learn? how antiquated. They also expect the device to have an existing online repository of programs already coded and working to solve their every problem, because nobody bothers getting their hands dirty and coding anything anymore. This is a generation of "downloaders", that expect everything to be already done and served on a silver platter in a matter of 2 clicks.
The HP Prime was simply born too late to develop that kind of repository because nowadays people want that repository to "simply exists" as if it took no effort to create one. It has no backwards compatibility to any "ancestor", so there's no big repository.

This is ALSO the reason why everybody wants Python. No, Python is not superior to any other language. Once you learn one or 2 coding languages you realize they are all very similar, and with a couple of hours to familiarize yourself with the syntax you could be using ANY language in no time (including PPL). Then why Python? Because... they want to download the code already written! People nowadays can't be bothered to port a simple subroutine from one language to another, they just want to download it and have it running on a single click. They don't want Python to code in Python, merely to download existing Python code and run it. And because Python is popular, the repository is large.

So don't try to explain this user the pros and cons of a device. Unless he gets a big repository where he can download his app to do Bode plots and Fourier transforms with an intuitive UI he will not be satisfied. It's just a generational thing.

This is really a very tired argument: "If you want something, code it yourself." How many times have I heard it before? It's a super ironical thing to say when probably 99% of almost everything you rely upon in your daily life is the finished work of others. The human race would simply not be where it is today if it wasn't for the fact that people need to specialize. I don't know how to build a microprocessor. Should that prevent me from ever using a computer ? We simply don't have the time to indulge in everything.

Let's get back to the topic at hand. You say, with a huge does of disdain, that people want Python on the calculator not because they care about Python, but because they want to use the huge repository that is already available. This is precisely the reason why people want Python. Why should I or others be always reinventing the wheel ? I do not do programming for a living (unless VHDL is also programming). I encounter needs for some programming during my studies and if some people had already taken their time to implement and made it available, why shouldn't I take advantage of that ? I have no doubt that if you spend a few hours a day to learn how to build a chair, you could build a chair in a one week. Why don't you do it? You probably either don't have the time or you believe people who are more specialized in carpentry can build a chair better than you can ever do.

In conclusion, my advice to you is for you to step back and read what you wrote, realize how ironical it sounds and stop with this holier than thou attitude. Some of your arguments make you sound like an old man complaining how bad the youth of today is compared to yesteryear.

[Marco Polo]

STANDING OVATION, CLAUDIO!!!

[Stevetuc]

I agree with medwatt. We all use software as a tool and its inefficient if you approach all tasks from first principles, although its as well to have a good understanding of those!
Python is ubiquitous and that is its great strength, both for educational and professional use. I write code but also reuse public domain mathlab, python code and C where it meets my needs.
This is a broad community and we should be open to users giving feedback on missing features or packages without labelling them as "downloaders"

[Claudio L.]

(12-14-2019 03:01 AM)medwatt Wrote:  In conclusion, my advice to you is for you to step back and read what you wrote, realize how ironical it sounds and stop with this holier than thou attitude. Some of your arguments make you sound like an old man complaining how bad the youth of today is compared to yesteryear.

So, basically you agree that you want ready made packages and you also agree on the way you want to use Python, hence my perception was accurate.
The holier than thou attitude wasn't mine, in fact it was yours on the original post, saying that if a product doesn't do what you need is a problem with the product. If you needed a different tool, that doesn't mean you should go on a public forum thrashing a product. Feedback is one thing, feedback with an attitude is quite different. I merely pointed out to other users that were trying to show pros and cons of the device that none of that was going to change your opinion because you need a code repository that doesn't exist.

There's nothing wrong with what you want, except you come here almost demanding that the product you chose to buy should have all this. You being a professional (as am I) know very well the tools we use can cost thousands of dollars. I do use tools like that all the time, I just don't think is right to go complain that my hammer doesn't work with screws.
I use ready made software all the time, most of it is paid, it's expensive and for good reason. However, I also have a collection of spreadsheets, many of them with VBA code I created, to serve specific needs I have. It just wouldn't cross my mind to go on a Microsoft forum and say that Excel is an expensive toy because it doesn't have what I need.

You need specific software, then you need to start your purchase from the existing software capabilities, then you can see which hardware can support your software. It's all up to you.

[Claudio L.]

(12-14-2019 03:01 AM)medwatt Wrote:  ... if some people had already taken their time to implement and made it available, why shouldn't I take advantage of that ?

You should take advantage. But there's a huge difference between accepting the generous work of thousands of people that generate these tools for free, and feeling entitled to demand that somebody else provides what you need, for free, for your $100 product.
I understand not reinventing the wheel, but you wanted a specific kind of wheel and came here blasting because your kind of wheel isn't provided for free.

Other than that, welcome to this forum, I'm sure you'll take good advantage of the knowledge and help this group will provide you.

[CyberAngel]

So... TI is better!

[rprosperi]

Bravo Claudio. Well done not getting dragged into a mud-slinging match.

Presumably medwatt knew that he wanted a tool with ready-made add-ons for the various things the tool will be used for. IMHO, selecting and buying a tool without as many add-ons as desired is not a weakness of that tool, seems more like a poor vetting process.

On the other hand, there are no tools available, AFAIK, with all the desired traits, so maybe selecting the Prime was not a mistake, and rather it was selecting the best of the 'expensive toys' available, as it comes closest to being the kind of tool desired. But I agree that criticizing the tool for not doing everything desired reveals more about the chooser/choice process than the tool itself. No insult intended, it's just how it comes across.

[compsystems]

(12-13-2019 03:56 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  Fast forward to after 2010: People expect to use a device using nothing but their intuition. Read? Learn? how antiquated. They also expect the device to have an existing online repository of programs already coded and working to solve their every problem, because nobody bothers getting their hands dirty and coding anything anymore. This is a generation of "downloaders", that expect everything to be already done and served on a silver platter in a matter of 2 clicks.
The HP Prime was simply born too late to develop that kind of repository because nowadays people want that repository to "simply exists" as if it took no effort to create one. It has no backwards compatibility to any "ancestor", so there's no big repository.

sorry is a computerized translation from g∞gle

Why create adobes and cement?, it is better to give this and from there build.

The creators of Arduino were based on a work done by a compatriot (Colombian) Hernando Barragán, a systems and computer engineer, Hernando went to obtain a master's degree in arts in Italy, the objective of this was to create a hardware development platform / software that can be manipulated by any student who starts in the world of computer science and electronics and even the student of arts and architecture or similar to give "life" to their projects through microcontroller programming without knowing how it works internally , without handling complicated registers and configurations, but through easy language and with libraries ready to incorporate into your projects.

The current generation is a generation of downloaders, but not only for downloading and executing, but as I said before to incorporate ready-made libraries in your projects, so that you can create your own constructions based on these "bricks"

Claudio L. Wrote:This is ALSO the reason why everybody wants Python. No, Python is not superior to any other language. Once you learn one or 2 coding languages you realize they are all very similar, and with a couple of hours to familiarize yourself with the syntax you could be using ANY language in no time (including PPL). Then why Python? Because... they want to download the code already written! People nowadays can't be bothered to port a simple subroutine from one language to another, they just want to download it and have it running on a single click. They don't want Python to code in Python, merely to download existing Python code and run it. And because Python is popular, the repository is large.

So don't try to explain this user the pros and cons of a device. Unless he gets a big repository where he can download his app to do Bode plots and Fourier transforms with an intuitive UI he will not be satisfied. It's just a generational thing.

There are studies that show the superior performance of coding in python compared to c/c++ and others when entering the world of current technology.

Professional technology education begins with Arduino, Python then moves on to other languages such as c/c++ and even assembler and development boards such as Freescale and FPGA.

The final idea is to create more with less, that allows arduino and python, the problem would be to stay there and not move to another level.

Arduino is developing a new IDE, which will take that next step
https://blog.arduino.cc/2019/10/18/ardui...-features/

Quote:ARDUINO-TEAM
... The simplicity of the Arduino IDE has made it one of the most popular in the world — it’s easy enough for beginners and fast for advanced users. Millions of you have used it as your everyday tool to program projects and applications. We’ve listened to your feedback (forums) though, and it’s time for a new enhanced version with features to appeal to the more advanced developers amongst you

[Claudio L.]

(12-14-2019 02:33 PM)compsystems Wrote:  The current generation is a generation of downloaders, but not only for downloading and executing, but as I said before to incorporate ready-made libraries in your projects, so that you can create your own constructions based on these "bricks"

Imagine a swimming pool full of Lego bricks. Generations before you made the bricks and they are all there for you to use them.
You job as part of the "downloader" generation is to select the right bricks and, as you said, build something else.
My problem is not with that. I understand this is a phenomenon of our times and I agree that you can build on top of other things. What I cannot accept is that if 90% of your job consists merely of connecting the right bricks, it's YOU who is responsible for selecting the bricks. You can't take a brick, and because it doesn't produce the outcome you wanted to build, you label it as bad, and go out demanding that the brick be modified.
It's a big swimming pool, just don't use that brick and move on, or if you can, modify the brick and throw a bunch back into the pool for other people to use (yes, that tired argument again... how do you think the pool got filled with bricks in the first place?). That's the correct approach.
I have nothing against downloaders in general, only the ones that complain in a way that I feel is unfair to the people making the bricks.

As for Python... to me it's just one of many languages. It's advantages are more marketing than anything else. 5 years from now somebody will come up with a language that has a cuter mascot and everybody will start: "why doesn't your device support xxxxxx?"

[cyrille de brébisson]

Hello,

My 2 (euro) cents....

On Python on Prime: Python is on Prime because Python is more and more used in education and Prime is targeted at education. Here, in France, Math teachers have been basically told to "drop Geometry" from the program and replace it with Algorythmic (in Python), they were given 10 to 20 hours of training to "learn" how to code so that they can teach it!

You can see the problem right there, you have people that basically do NOT know how to program (10 to 20h is at minimum one hundredth of the time needed to get to junior level programmer), and you tell them to go TEACH it to others... So, of course, they have limited abilities and will not be able to do much outside of what they were told. Hence Python it is.
** Of course, you do have outliers that will be good at it, already do know some programming... but the vast majority will not...



On Python as a language:
Years ago, you had a computer with a blinking cursor. Your first program was in the form of
10 print "hello word"
Easy shmeesy...
Now, with GUI, windows... making a hello word is hard (or too easy), but definitely is NOT a stepping stone to going further... This is a HUGHE blocking point to learning programming...
Programming on calculator actually does have some of the easiness of earlier programming languages, but even on a calc like Prime, doing a "hello world" is not that easy (need to created an exported function)...
Python, to some extend is bringing this facility back in, which makes it super accessible...
But at the same time, Python also provides a "way up", with functions, objects and the like, which makes it a good teaching language...
It also has garbage collection, which solves one of the biggest source of bugs in programs...
As a result, no wonder that it is so used by non professional programmers, or even professional programmers when they need something quick and dirty...
Hence it's ubiquity...
Will some other language come up and displace it? maybe, but for the moment, this is kind of it...

Cyrille

[parisse]

(12-16-2019 06:21 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote:  Programming on calculator actually does have some of the easiness of earlier programming languages, but even on a calc like Prime, doing a "hello world" is not that easy (need to created an exported function)...

You don't need to export a CAS function (and you will always need to create a function...).

Python has some drawbacks for beginners, like using = instead of := or not using explicit block delimiters. It's not designed to do maths, but French curriculum asks math teachers to teach it.
Python is now mandatory in French curriculum because one influent leader in the French education hierarchy decided this. It is replacing Algobox, which was much easier to teach at beginner level.
I'm afraid that most teachers will not really teach programming to students, they will religiously write some piece of code from a book on the blackboard and tell the students to copy it and hope that they will not make errors copying it because they would have a hard time correcting it (and some teachers will not go to a classroom with computers, students will just write the piece of code on a paper).
It's really becoming like a religion, with some formulas like "from math import *" that must be somewhere otherwise it would fail, nobody knows why.
Python programming is replacing algorithmic in examinations. I believe that this move was really a bad idea. I hope things will change in the future.

[CyberAngel]

(12-14-2019 08:18 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  X
Imagine a swimming pool full of Lego bricks.
X

Exactly! - Bricks hurt - we need a liquid programming language - like Lisp.
We could add some Forth for building the pool for the liquid...together we have
Reverse Polish Lisp

When, Cyrille, when?

[Claudio L.]

(12-16-2019 07:34 AM)parisse Wrote:  Python programming is replacing algorithmic in examinations. I believe that this move was really a bad idea. I hope things will change in the future.

I agree, in my opinion it's better to be "language agnostic" than being tied to a specific language (which will evolve or be replaced eventually). Algorithms and logic should be taught in pure form, I think for example a graphical block representation would work so much better for both educators and students.
There's plenty of "coding" apps (more like games) for kids on the Android market that are like that: graphical representation of an algorithm using blocks, so the kid focuses on the algorithm and not on any particular syntax (it's like the old LOGO tortoise, except the code is not text, but blocks). Those apps worked great on my kid, the interest in coding was almost instantly awaken, and in only a few hours had already progressed to learning loops to do repetitive tasks (not that my kids would have any genetic predisposition to code, of course... but I think it works really well). For educators it would be a lot simpler to learn AND teach too.

[Eddie W. Shore]

I agree with you 100%, Claudio!

How does one think all those apps, calculators, and computers that we do have get to be available in the first place? A lot of hard work, creativity, programming, debugging, correcting errors, and probably some joy, some sweat and tears, some frustration.

There is no fairy godfather or godmother that came and waived their magic wand.

If MedWatt wants some perspective, he should take a look at the vintage pacs HP had in the 1970s and the accompanying program listings.

[HP User]

Hmm, this thread took an interesting turn in my absence.

Is there peace, by the way? Just wondering.