HP-41 RAMBox Questions

[Ángel Martin]

(02-19-2020 11:13 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 07:25 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Does it also work into a DM41X? Therein speed should not be an issue.

Since the DM41X does not have an I/O block to receive the module, it does not.

I'm not qualified to make suggestions on RAMbox systems (never felt entirely comfortable with that device, maybe because my actual unit got a flat battery just a few weeks after I purchased it and haven't summoned the stamina to open the card-reader enclosure since...) but - certainly you can load the RAMBOX64 Module on the DM41X (or on the CL RAM/Flash for that matter). I believe the issue is there's no sRAM pages configured for it on the DM41-X , although I wonder if you can use those provided by the HEPAX4H.MOD ;-)

'

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(02-19-2020 11:13 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 07:25 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Does it also work into a DM41X? Therein speed should not be an issue.

Since the DM41X does not have an I/O block to receive the module, it does not.

DOH!

However, Angel's idea is tempting (Hepax RAM)...

Where can I find such MODule? I'm ready to brick my DM41x, again. :)

[MeindertKuipers]

It should work with DM41X. V41 comes with MOD files for 4, 8, 16 and 32K RAM pages. The MOD files may need to be adjusted to plug them in a specific port as expected by the RAMBOX software. It may be a bit tricky to find out where a RAM page is plugged if it is completely empty.

Ángel, is there a CAT funtion that lists the contents of all module ports and can tell if there is RAM plugged (even if it is empty)? Could be useful ...

[Ángel Martin]

(02-19-2020 12:18 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  It should work with DM41X. V41 comes with MOD files for 4, 8, 16 and 32K RAM pages. The MOD files may need to be adjusted to plug them in a specific port as expected by the RAMBOX software. It may be a bit tricky to find out where a RAM page is plugged if it is completely empty.

the way MOD files work in the DM-41X is different from V41 when it comes to the RAM pages. It'll take some research for the RAMBOX case...

(02-19-2020 12:18 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  Ángel, is there a CAT funtion that lists the contents of all module ports and can tell if there is RAM plugged (even if it is empty)? Could be useful ...

Yes, PGCAT in the AMC_OS/X - which is identical to BCAT in the Hepax. It'll show "NO FAT" for an empty RAM page.

[MeindertKuipers]

(02-19-2020 02:50 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 12:18 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  It should work with DM41X. V41 comes with MOD files for 4, 8, 16 and 32K RAM pages. The MOD files may need to be adjusted to plug them in a specific port as expected by the RAMBOX software. It may be a bit tricky to find out where a RAM page is plugged if it is completely empty.

the way MOD files work in the DM-41X is different from V41 when it comes to the RAM pages. It'll take some research for the RAMBOX case...

(02-19-2020 12:18 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  Ángel, is there a CAT funtion that lists the contents of all module ports and can tell if there is RAM plugged (even if it is empty)? Could be useful ...

Yes, PGCAT in the AMC_OS/X - which is identical to BCAT in the Hepax. It'll show "NO FAT" for an empty RAM page.

I could have known that, I was lazy ...

[MeindertKuipers]

(02-19-2020 02:50 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  

(02-19-2020 12:18 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  It should work with DM41X. V41 comes with MOD files for 4, 8, 16 and 32K RAM pages. The MOD files may need to be adjusted to plug them in a specific port as expected by the RAMBOX software. It may be a bit tricky to find out where a RAM page is plugged if it is completely empty.

the way MOD files work in the DM-41X is different from V41 when it comes to the RAM pages. It'll take some research for the RAMBOX case...

(02-19-2020 12:18 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  Ángel, is there a CAT funtion that lists the contents of all module ports and can tell if there is RAM plugged (even if it is empty)? Could be useful ...

Yes, PGCAT in the AMC_OS/X - which is identical to BCAT in the Hepax. It'll show "NO FAT" for an empty RAM page.

Did a test with PGCAT in my DM41X, a RAM page does not show NO FAT, it just says NO ROM. And I can edit the RAM page with DAVID. Next test on my real HP41 with MLDL2000

[Ángel Martin]

(02-20-2020 01:28 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  Did a test with PGCAT in my DM41X, a RAM page does not show NO FAT, it just says NO ROM. And I can edit the RAM page with DAVID. Next test on my real HP41 with MLDL2000

That's bizarre.. it clearly reports "NO FAT" on my DM-41X (and V41 for that matter) when I load the HEPAX and the first two words in the page are zero. How do you load the RAM pages?

[MeindertKuipers]

(02-20-2020 04:35 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 01:28 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  Did a test with PGCAT in my DM41X, a RAM page does not show NO FAT, it just says NO ROM. And I can edit the RAM page with DAVID. Next test on my real HP41 with MLDL2000

That's bizarre.. it clearly reports "NO FAT" on my DM-41X (and V41 for that matter) when I load the HEPAX and the first two words in the page are zero. How do you load the RAM pages?

I use a pretty plain MOD file with 4K RAM, completely filled with 0's. Will do some more testing in the weekend. I have not loaded HEPAX though.

[Ángel Martin]

(02-20-2020 05:12 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 04:35 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  That's bizarre.. it clearly reports "NO FAT" on my DM-41X (and V41 for that matter) when I load the HEPAX and the first two words in the page are zero. How do you load the RAM pages?

I use a pretty plain MOD file with 4K RAM, completely filled with 0's. Will do some more testing in the weekend. I have not loaded HEPAX though.

I checked the MCODE again: The "NO FAT" message only shows when the first word is non-zero and the second word (i.e. the number of functions) is zero. So it's not a RAM existence test, but a simple check on the first two words.... maybe not what you were looking for.

[MeindertKuipers]

(02-22-2020 01:44 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  

(02-20-2020 05:12 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  I use a pretty plain MOD file with 4K RAM, completely filled with 0's. Will do some more testing in the weekend. I have not loaded HEPAX though.

I checked the MCODE again: The "NO FAT" message only shows when the first word is non-zero and the second word (i.e. the number of functions) is zero. So it's not a RAM existence test, but a simple check on the first two words.... maybe not what you were looking for.

That explains a lot. However, it contradicts with the description in the OSX manual:
- Non-empty pages will show the first function in the FAT, or “NO FAT” if such is the case
- Empty pages will show the “NO ROM” message next to their number.
- Blank RAM pages will also show “NO FAT”, indicating their RAM-in-ROM character.

How is the check done fro a blank RAM page? It probably needs to have an XROM number? Still wpould be niceRAM ...

[rprosperi]

Thanks very much to all the smart folks that provided answers, comments and suggestions! Armed with all that info I was able to re-write the OS on my RAMBOX with "-RAMBOX 32" OS using a CLONIX module with ZenROM and a new RAMBOX image. Special thanks to Sylvain for his patience with off-line questions.

I saved the 3 unique FOCAL application ROM images before surgery just to be safe; I am waiting for confirmation from the author before sharing them. Functions in these application ROMs heavily call back and forth to other functions so they were apparently planned as a whole; they also use some of the extra functions added into the hacked OS image, but all those functions were taken from the CCD ROM, so can be easily replaced or used with that module.

Based on comments in this thread and in Jürgen's 41CY thread, I'm curious if anyone has the "-RAMBOX 1B" ROM image that they could share? It does not appear to be included in the CLONIX, 41CL or V41 sets of ROMs, nor on TOS.

Thanks again guys!

[Ángel Martin]

(02-22-2020 04:07 PM)MeindertKuipers Wrote:  How is the check done fro a blank RAM page? It probably needs to have an XROM number? Still wpould be niceRAM ...

I've added a page Q-RAM test to the function, so in addition to "NO ROM" and "NO FAT" it also reports "Q-RAM"when these two conditions occur:

1. the page has no XROM id# (i.e the first word is zero), and
2. it is a q-RAM (tested comparing the results of WROM and FETCH S&X)

I can send you the new MOD file if you want to try it, otherwise it'll be in the next CL library update.

[Jurgen Keller]

(02-24-2020 05:06 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Thanks very much to all the smart folks that provided answers, comments and suggestions! Armed with all that info I was able to re-write the OS on my RAMBOX with "-RAMBOX 32" OS using a CLONIX module with ZenROM and a new RAMBOX image. Special thanks to Sylvain for his patience with off-line questions.

I saved the 3 unique FOCAL application ROM images before surgery just to be safe; I am waiting for confirmation from the author before sharing them. Functions in these application ROMs heavily call back and forth to other functions so they were apparently planned as a whole; they also use some of the extra functions added into the hacked OS image, but all those functions were taken from the CCD ROM, so can be easily replaced or used with that module.

Based on comments in this thread and in Jürgen's 41CY thread, I'm curious if anyone has the "-RAMBOX 1B" ROM image that they could share? It does not appear to be included in the CLONIX, 41CL or V41 sets of ROMs, nor on TOS.

Thanks again guys!

I'm pretty sure that this RAMBOX went through my hands. Good to hear that it ended up in good hands. This guy also found a few 41CY and contacted me to restore the OS. This project ended up in the RB2INI module (after many sleepless nights).

As you found out in the meantime, this is a 32K RAMBOX. It runs fine with the "-RAMBOX 64b" ROM except that a few specific functions like PG<> do not have any effect. I guess that the "ES RSU- 1A" was loaded to save the RAMBOX OS to mini cassettes because a few of them were part of the package that this guy uncovered. The other three ROM's (-KATASTER 1, -ING-VERM 1, -ING-VERM-2) are most probably related to surveying. Back then I didn't save these images because without documentation I thought they are more or less useless.

I think I have a RAMBOX with the "-RAMBOX 32" image. However, currently I don't have easy access to my collection. Due to some renovation work in the attic I had to put them into boxes. That's also the reason why I was neglecting my hobby in the last few weeks. If I'll find the right box I will save and share the image.

I thought of building a ROM to recover a 32K RAMBOX. However, it's relatively easy to recover it with "standard" tools like CLONIX. That's why the priority of such a project is low.

Enjoy your new gadget. For my part, I like the possibility to load FOCAL programs into RAM which allows for building your personal ROM images.

[rprosperi]

(02-24-2020 10:48 AM)Jurgen Keller Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that this RAMBOX went through my hands. Good to hear that it ended up in good hands. This guy also found a few 41CY and contacted me to restore the OS. This project ended up in the RB2INI module (after many sleepless nights).

As you found out in the meantime, this is a 32K RAMBOX. It runs fine with the "-RAMBOX 64b" ROM except that a few specific functions like PG<> do not have any effect. I guess that the "ES RSU- 1A" was loaded to save the RAMBOX OS to mini cassettes because a few of them were part of the package that this guy uncovered. The other three ROM's (-KATASTER 1, -ING-VERM 1, -ING-VERM-2) are most probably related to surveying. Back then I didn't save these images because without documentation I thought they are more or less useless.

I think I have a RAMBOX with the "-RAMBOX 32" image. However, currently I don't have easy access to my collection. Due to some renovation work in the attic I had to put them into boxes. That's also the reason why I was neglecting my hobby in the last few weeks. If I'll find the right box I will save and share the image.

I thought of building a ROM to recover a 32K RAMBOX. However, it's relatively easy to recover it with "standard" tools like CLONIX. That's why the priority of such a project is low.

Enjoy your new gadget. For my part, I like the possibility to load FOCAL programs into RAM which allows for building your personal ROM images.

Thanks Jürgen, yes indeed the seller mentioned that you had seen the items, however I though it best to document the process and get all the useful answers captured in the Forum for the next folks that acquire one of these.

It's interesting that in the end, using these is really pretty straightforward after all, even though they initially seem so complex and foreign. I suppose that comes from the vaunted status these held 'back in the day' due to their high cost, relative scarcity, and limited set of knowledgeable players who knew what they were doing.

So many years later, and armed with tools like Angel's modules, Diego's NoV/CLONIX great documentation like your recent HP-41CY article and advice from so many experts, it's really not hard at all and in fact bring back some of the core fun that the 41 family of HP and 3rd-party products did in the 80's and even all the years since.

Now if only I can get my hands on an MLDL2000, I feel I would have personally experienced most of the most important 41 toys. Tools! I meant tools.

The image that doesn't seem to be available is the "-RAMBOX 1B" version; there are several versions of the RAMBOX 32, RAMBOX a/b, RAMBOX 64A/B, etc. which I now can see have W&W version info tagged inside, which can help to paint a historical picture of how this OS evolved. It will be interesting to check this if/when someone can provide a copy of "-RAMBOX 1B", but I suspect this was probably from some individual that simply appended the 'PRFAT FAT-listing FOCAL program from the manual onto the end of the -RAMBOX 32" image.

[rprosperi]

I have an update on the Application ROM images:

Bad News: The seller has told me that the images may NOT be shared as they were written by a colleague, are copyrighted, and may not be distributed. He should have cleared them himself, but it never occurred to him there might be interest, and presumed I would simply wipe the device.

Good News (or maybe, not-so-bad news): The applications are only for surveying, have no general-purpose use, and have no documentation.

So, unless you are a clairvoyant time-traveling surveyor, eager to use someone else's aged custom programs for free, this news is really not too relevant. Note that it's entirely feasible that there are members here who fit this description, and for that, I'm sorry for raising false hopes.