repairing/testing 82161a IL issue using 82162a

[dmh]

Hi, I have a working 82162a printer (slight paper advance issue) and an unrecognised 82161a tape drive that powers on and rewinds the tape but gives "Transmit Err" for anything else (after AUTOIO). The IL module works as I can print to the printer. I powered both devices in the same way and tested them separately as the only device in the loop.

I'm looking at ways to easily verify what is wrong with it and then work out my options and was wondering if it could just be the IL part of the tape drive and whether I can swap it out of the working printer to test.

Any advice appreciated.

TIA, dmh

[Karl-Ludwig Butte]

Hello dmh,

the only way to verify an HP-41-IL-System I know is to equip the HP-41 with an HP-IL Development Module (HP 00041-15043). With that module installed you can switch the HP-41 in so called "Scope"-mode and then monitor and display HP-IL messages as they go around the loop.

Simply switching the IL part from the printer to the cassette drive won't work in my opinion because the action for the different IL messages are device dependent. E.g. the Init message for the printer means position the print head whereas for the cassette drive it means rewind the tape among other things. For the video interface Init means position the cursor and clear the screen.

I know this doesn't sound encouraging, but it is definitely a surefire way to use the IL Development Module as an appropriate tool in this case.

Best regards

Karl

[Paul Berger (Canada)]

When you use a HP-41 as a trace device it is dedicated to that function so you would need another HP-IL controller device to issue commends. Having a trace device would certainly be helpful in isolating where things break down.

The chip that handles the IL protocol would be the same in both devices, it would be the next level up, the microprocessor running the device, that would determine what commands it responds to and how.

If you have both the the printer and the tape drive in the loop does the printer function normally? If so that would suggest that the HP-IL chip in the tape unit is mostly functional as all traffic on the loop has to pass through the HP-IL chip. For the loop to even function it would suggest that the assigning of addresses has worked.

A transmit error would indicate that the packet sent out did not get back to the controller which would indicate that the device is not re-transmitting the packet, which would suggest a problem with the embedded controller in the tape unit.

The HP-IL development module would give you more commands that would be helpful to troubleshoot the problem, the HPIL interface alone is pretty limited. A more capable controller like a 71B or a 75 would also be useful.

Paul.

[Sylvain Cote]

In the 1980s, my HP-IL debugging setup was:

• HP-41 (C, CV or CX) → HP-IL loop controller
  • 82160A HP-IL module
  • 82183A Extended I/O module
    
• HP-41 (C, CV or CX) → HP-IL messages tracer #1 (before peripheral)
  • 82160A HP-IL module
  • 00041-15043 HP-IL Development Module (SCOPE mode with 1.5 delay mode)
  • 82143A Thermal Printer (to print HP-IL messages without affecting HP-IL loop)
    
• The HP-IL peripheral to debug
• HP-41 (C, CV or CX) → HP-IL messages tracer #2 (after peripheral)
  • 82160A HP-IL module
  • 00041-15043 HP-IL Development Module (SCOPE mode with 1.5 delay mode)
  • 82143A Thermal Printer (to print HP-IL messages without affecting HP-IL loop)
    

Today, my HP-IL debugging setup is:

• HP-41 (C, CV or CX) → HP-IL loop controller
  • 82160A HP-IL module
  • 82183A Extended I/O module
    
• PIL-Box → HP-IL messages tracer #1 (before peripheral)
  • connected to a PC with USB running pyILPER/ILPER/etc with a SCOPE window active and logging to a file
    
• The HP-IL peripheral to debug
• PIL-Box → HP-IL messages tracer #2 (after peripheral)
  • connected to a PC with USB running pyILPER/ILPER/etc with a SCOPE window active and logging to a file
    

[dmh]

Thank you for the detailed and informative replies so far.

I have 2 x 82160a IL modules and calculators, however, I do not have an IL Development module and when I've seen them available they are VERY expensive!

I am planning to purchase a PIL Box but they are still unavailable. Not sure I can justify buying 2 though.

I will connect the printer and the tape drive in the same loop and see if I can print and advise.

I haven't opened anything yet, is the IL chip socketed or soldered?

Thanks, dmh

[Paul Berger (Canada)]

(01-07-2021 01:16 AM)dmh Wrote:  Thank you for the detailed and informative replies so far.

I have 2 x 82160a IL modules and calculators, however, I do not have an IL Development module and when I've seen them available they are VERY expensive!

I am planning to purchase a PIL Box but they are still unavailable. Not sure I can justify buying 2 though.

I will connect the printer and the tape drive in the same loop and see if I can print and advise.

I haven't opened anything yet, is the IL chip socketed or soldered?

Thanks, dmh

The chips are soldered in.

Paul.

[Sylvain Cote]

(01-07-2021 01:16 AM)dmh Wrote:  I have 2 x 82160a IL modules and calculators, however, I do not have an IL Development module and when I've seen them available they are VERY expensive!

Unfortunately they are.
The lower cost alternative is to buy a Clonix-D module from Diego and load the HP-IL Dev. ROM image in it.

(01-07-2021 01:16 AM)dmh Wrote:  I am planning to purchase a PIL Box but they are still unavailable. Not sure I can justify buying 2 though.

You do not need, one is enough, you may just need to do the test twice.
Test #1: with the PIL-Box before the device to see the messages sent by the HP-41.
Test #2: with the PIL-Box after the device to see the messages replied by the device.
Assuming the HP-41 / HP-IL module works, then you just need to put the PIL-Box after the device.

Sylvain

edit: typo

[dmh]

I realised why I haven't tested with both devices in the loop as I can't power them both at once at this stage so will have to sort this out first.

The wait for a PIL box might be some time too.

I've looked at the Clonix site but it appears that the current product is NoV-64 which I assume will do the same thing? It's pretty expensive too (plug shipping to AU).

Ok, 1 PIL box will work if I do each side separately - thanks.

I was wondering, do the interface connectors ever fail? That would be the simplest thing to fix :-)

I'm wondering if this is worth it now - I only have 1 tape and it may not work even if I get the hardware (IL) side working (not to mention tape head etc).

[Sylvain Cote]

(01-07-2021 11:06 PM)dmh Wrote:  I realised why I haven't tested with both devices in the loop as I can't power them both at once at this stage so will have to sort this out first.

When you have a problem with a device, it is better to test it alone in the loop, if possible.

(01-07-2021 11:06 PM)dmh Wrote:  I've looked at the Clonix site but it appears that the current product is NoV-64 which I assume will do the same thing? It's pretty expensive too (plug shipping to AU).

Nop, Clonix-D, USB-41 and NoV-64d are currently available.
You should contact Diego Diaz to get more information.
You can also have a look at my HHC-2020 and HPCC-2020 presentations on Diego module in the article section.

(01-07-2021 11:06 PM)dmh Wrote:  I was wondering, do the interface connectors ever fail? That would be the simplest thing to fix :-)

I never had a connector failure since the introduction of the interface.

(01-07-2021 11:06 PM)dmh Wrote:  I'm wondering if this is worth it now - I only have 1 tape and it may not work even if I get the hardware (IL) side working (not to mention tape head etc).

That is your decision, but you have a point here.

Also to be considered, if you buy a PIL-Box you will then have access to HP-IL peripherals emulators from Jean-François Garnier, Christoph Gießelink and Joachim Siebold.
The PIL-Box and the emulators are covered in my 2018 HP-IL Compendium in the article section.
Do not forget that you will also need a HP-IL cable to complete the PIL-Box.

Sylvain

edit: typo

[Martin Hepperle]

There is also a "scope" program for the HP 75 (I believe somewhere in PPC-J or in Datafile and in the HP-75 Horn disk collections).

I used it in a larger IL-loop with a HP 110 and several peripherals.

Yes, the HP-75 wants to be system controller at startup.
The trick is to start the loop with another controller and the HP-75 not yet part of the loop.
On the HP-75 the scope program is started (still out of the closed loop) and this program clears the controller bit in the HP-IL chip (LEX Files with HPILCMDS and RIO/WIO are needed, or the I/O ROM).
Then the HP-75 can be "hot plugged" into the HP-IL loop and the scope program writes all HP-IL mnemonics to the display and also to a file.

Martin