Are the members of the HP Prime team doing well?

[dg1969]

I'm a little confused, worried should I say ...
It seems to me that we haven't had a chance to read Mr. Tim Wessman for a long time here.
Does anyone have any reassuring news?
I don't know how many people make up the "calculator" development team at HP ... We don't have much sign of life ... Hope everyone on this team is healthy.
I have the feeling that this "HP Prime" project is carried by few people, and that it would take only one of the eminent members of this team to have a serious problem for this beautiful machine to cease to exist.

I wanted to send a friendly little nod to the entire HP Prime team that I don't know to wish them a better New Year and very solid health!

[Steve Simpkin]

Here are some insights from one of HP's calculator developers of what HP has been up to with calculators.

Cyrille de Brébisson - What's New at HP Calculators and What Isn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IulvI0YMKFE

[Hans S.]

So, did I understand Cyrille correctly, the HP guys dindn't even know that HP ist producing calculators?

Hans

[grsbanks]

(01-22-2021 06:08 PM)Hans S. Wrote:  So, did I understand Cyrille correctly, the HP guys dindn't even know that HP ist producing calculators?

That was probably not to be taken literally. The point of that comment was to emphasise how unimportant calculators are to HP these days.

[salvomic]

(01-22-2021 07:40 PM)grsbanks Wrote:  That was probably not to be taken literally. The point of that comment was to emphasise how unimportant calculators are to HP these days.

but, a part to have good new by them, eventually is there any hope to see a new update for the Prime, after a year?

[grsbanks]

(01-22-2021 08:03 PM)salvomic Wrote:  but, a part to have good new by them, eventually is there any hope to see a new update for the Prime, after a year?

I would very much like to be proven wrong but in my opinion, no. HP have already made it abundantly clear that they no longer have any interest whatsoever in calculators, and CdB confirmed this if you read between the lines of his comments. I doubt he and Tim are being allowed to put any further work into the Prime.

[salvomic]

(01-22-2021 08:14 PM)grsbanks Wrote:  I would very much like to be proven wrong but in my opinion, no. HP have already made it abundantly clear that they no longer have any interest whatsoever in calculators, and CdB confirmed this if you read between the lines of his comments. I doubt he and Tim are being allowed to put any further work into the Prime.

thanks.

IMHO it' a pity, however.
The Prime wouldn't deserve a premature death :-(

[toml_12953]

(01-22-2021 08:21 PM)salvomic Wrote:  

(01-22-2021 08:14 PM)grsbanks Wrote:  I would very much like to be proven wrong but in my opinion, no. HP have already made it abundantly clear that they no longer have any interest whatsoever in calculators, and CdB confirmed this if you read between the lines of his comments. I doubt he and Tim are being allowed to put any further work into the Prime.

thanks.

IMHO it' a pity, however.
The Prime wouldn't deserve a premature death :-(

It had the potential to be the best calculator ever to come from HP. I'll miss new official releases of the OS. Perhaps now, some third party can develop software for it without fear of retaliation by HP for messing with exam mode. The hell with school boards! Just give us more capability!

[TheLastMillennial]

I understand many of you aren't able to watch the video, so I pulled the main points I found interesting. I originally posted this over on Cemetech where the members aren't as familiar with the HP calculator developers so there may be some unnecessary clarification.

As a surprise to no one, this Covid Pandemic was a major factor why there's been little development lately, but not in the way you may expect. Cyrille and Tim Wessman (Another HP calculator developer) are actually working two completely different jobs at HP: Calculators and PC accessories. Without going into too much detail, the pandemic started a massive demand for laptops that HP had to satisfy. This meant that Cyrille and Tim needed to focus almost entirely on their PC accessories job which left very little time to work on calculators at all.

Changing gears, Cyrille spoke on bringing back the HP Prime emulator app back to the App and Google Play store. Unfortunately, Apple and Google don't like the whole 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' saying and remove apps that haven't been updated in a while; even if they're still compatible and work well on the latest OS. The app can't be recompiled using the new SDK because there's too many things that have changed in the SDK causing the update process to be too time consuming for the current situation. There was discussion on making the apps open source, but unfortunately there's many issues with not all the code belonging to HP (~ 1:02:00) & (1:20:00).

He also discussed the beta Python app, confirming that they are indeed still planning on releasing an app based on micro-Python sometime in the future, "Hopefully whenever we have time to do it" (9:19). Along with mentioning that public beta Python apps will be released once development has started back up. Cyrille mentioned his vision on how the app would integrate with the Prime. Unlike TI's implementation where you can only program Python in the Python app, Cyrille wants to integrate Python into the main program editor and allow the user to exchange objects easily among Python, PPL, and CAS!

Cyrille touched on why Assembly isn't available on the HP Prime. I was disappointed to hear that the main reason is he didn't feel confident enough to allow ASM capabilities and proper security for the exam mode at the same time. I don't know the history of ASM on HP calculators but it doesn't sound like HP ever had an issue of cheating on previous calculators, so I'm a bit confused why this was the main reason. Fortunately, Cyrille is considering adding limited ASM capabilities to the Prime in the future. This limited ASM which would have significantly fewer features than PPL, but would allow a major boost in speed. This isn't a priority feature however and it will likely be many years before Cyrille actually starts implementing ASM.

This was the end of the HP Prime talk. Although I'm quite sad that HP doesn't care enough about the calculator division to hire people specifically for it, I'm hopeful for the future. When the pandemic finally settles down and the team has time to work on calculators again, there should be heaps of mobile apps and Python app betas to try! The HP Prime is definitely not getting discontinued so it's not a matter of 'if' these things will happen, it's a matter of 'when'.

Cyrille spoke about lots of other calculator related things, like HID support, and even showed a bit of HP Prime source code! (25:40) It's really nice to see transparency in a company and I highly suggest watching the video, I personally found it fascinating!

[bbergman]

As someone living in one of the "HP Country" areas (San Diego) and with many of my friends working for HP, I completely understand and concur with Cyrille's comments. HP has always been focused on their big money makers, and after they jettisoned the original calculator division entirely (what was that, maybe early 2000's? Late 1990's?), I suspect that they really have only kept it alive because of the personal passion and heroics of HP employees who didn't want to see it end.

We've heard from ex-HP folks for decades that they, not leadership, were the ones who pushed internally to keep the calculators alive; that they were the ones who created value propositions and sold others on the value; who put thousands of hours of their personal and family time into the products; and who continued to champion the calculator division.

The sales folks see the market as minimally viable, especially in the USA. TI and Casio are more committed than HP for sure. In other countries, there's a higher profit margin and more demand, and so there is a fair amount of interest among salespeople in those areas, but it's still small potatoes compared to the rest of the HP divisions.

It's my belief that if Tim and Cyrille ever left, the calculator division would die a quiet and permanent death. Any of us who have an interest in any current models owe them our sincere gratitude for keeping some calculators alive all this time. It's a labor of love for sure. I don't expect this will change either, since HP just doesn't have time for it. It's kind of like two guys in the maintenance division trying to keep a dingy afloat because it's still serviceable, while the Navy is really more concerned about their worldwide fleet of 20 aircraft carriers and 100 destroyers.

Within the local HP facility, employees are focused on printers, ink cartridges, accessories, and laptops. It didn't surprise me at all to hear that Tim and Cyrille were redirected towards those money-making areas, rather than calculators. I would bet $10 that they also campaigned hard to be allowed to even keep/contribute 10% of their time to working on them, rather than being completely moved over to other products! The same thing happens here in San Diego. One of my good friends changes focus on her work about every six months (and right now, the hotspot is printers). Anyhow, I guess my point is that when I heard what happened, it made total sense, and was very consistent with my experience with HP here.

I can only send them best wishes and grateful thanks for their continued efforts to do something (anything!) in the way of calculators. They're probably the only ones keeping HP calculators alive.

[victorvbc]

I remember watching an interview of John Kenny from Keysight on the EEVBlog, where he mentions the reason why the test gear/measurement division was spun-off HP to become Agilent. Worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/WoRJOCdNahc?t=376

[Albert Chan]

(01-23-2021 12:58 AM)TheLastMillennial Wrote:  Although I'm quite sad that HP doesn't care enough about the calculator division to hire people specifically for it, I'm hopeful for the future. When the pandemic finally settles down and the team has time to work on calculators again, there should be heaps of mobile apps and Python app betas to try! The HP Prime is definitely not getting discontinued so it's not a matter of 'if' these things will happen, it's a matter of 'when'.

If the priority were on cash cow products, why will end of pandemic gives more time to work on calculators ?

[TheLastMillennial]

(01-23-2021 04:02 PM)Albert Chan Wrote:  If the priority were on cash cow products, why will end of pandemic gives more time to work on calculators ?

Cyrille stated a major reason for the lack of time lately was due to the spike in demand for laptops. My speculation is that when the pandemic ends and people no longer are required to have laptops for school or work, there will be less demand for PC accessories which leaves more time for calculators.

[John Keith]

(01-23-2021 01:22 AM)bbergman Wrote:  ... HP has always been focused on their big money makers, and after they jettisoned the original calculator division entirely (what was that, maybe early 2000's? Late 1990's?), I suspect that they really have only kept it alive because of the personal passion and heroics of HP employees who didn't want to see it end.

We've heard from ex-HP folks for decades that they, not leadership, were the ones who pushed internally to keep the calculators alive; that they were the ones who created value propositions and sold others on the value; who put thousands of hours of their personal and family time into the products; and who continued to champion the calculator division.

...
It's my belief that if Tim and Cyrille ever left, the calculator division would die a quiet and permanent death. Any of us who have an interest in any current models owe them our sincere gratitude for keeping some calculators alive all this time. It's a labor of love for sure. I don't expect this will change either, since HP just doesn't have time for it...

Though we here are passionate about HP calculators the market for physical calculators is too small to interest a multinational corporation. I hope that if/when HP exits the market they can be persuaded to open-source their code so that small companies like Swiss Micros (or even smaller start-ups) can make compatible calculators without dancing around copyright issues.

Judging by HP's behavior as a corporate citizen that is unlikely but I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

[StephenG1CMZ]

Perhaps if they include a HP Prime Emulator on their own laptops, it might increase the demand for the actual calculator. Though I'm not sure how you'd include it within a mouse

[bbergman]

(01-23-2021 08:13 PM)John Keith Wrote:  I hope that if/when HP exits the market they can be persuaded to open-source their code so that small companies like Swiss Micros (or even smaller start-ups) can make compatible calculators without dancing around copyright issues.

Cyrille made it pretty clear that they would otherwise be willing to do this, but there are multiple libraries, algorithms, and other copyrighted materials used in their code that they cannot release to the public. To do so would require an army of lawyers to track down the rights and gain exemptions. He didn't think that would be feasible.

[Stevetuc]

(01-24-2021 04:05 AM)bbergman Wrote:  

(01-23-2021 08:13 PM)John Keith Wrote:  I hope that if/when HP exits the market they can be persuaded to open-source their code so that small companies like Swiss Micros (or even smaller start-ups) can make compatible calculators without dancing around copyright issues.

Cyrille made it pretty clear that they would otherwise be willing to do this, but there are multiple libraries, algorithms, and other copyrighted materials used in their code that they cannot release to the public. To do so would require an army of lawyers to track down the rights and gain exemptions. He didn't think that would be feasible.

Another way to handle this issue could be to provide an I/O port in the firmware to allow external code to run, like the 3rd party Omega firmware for Numworks does.
Cyrille mentioned this would have security implications because of exam mode, but I would argue that the I/O port could be firmly closed with exam mode activated, preventing any 3rd party code running on the calc.
Of course I'm hoping HP continue to support the Prime into the future and release Python and other goodies but having the I/O port would open the way to adding things like Fourier Transform and other code where the licensing prevents it being integrated into the firmware.

[Jean-Baptiste Boric]

(01-24-2021 11:09 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Another way to handle this issue could be to provide an I/O port in the firmware to allow external code to run, like the 3rd party Omega firmware for Numworks does.
Cyrille mentioned this would have security implications because of exam mode, but I would argue that the I/O port could be firmly closed with exam mode activated, preventing any 3rd party code running on the calc.
Of course I'm hoping HP continue to support the Prime into the future and release Python and other goodies but having the I/O port would open the way to adding things like Fourier Transform and other code where the licensing prevents it being integrated into the firmware.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring at on the NumWorks. There's no particular I/O port for running external code, you just flash a firmware that runs your code. Omega has support for external apps, which are just files held in external flash that you jump into. There's no security whatsoever in that particular implementation, but the MCU does have MPU support, so it could be redesigned with a kernel/user mode split.

Regarding the HP Prime, the CPU is perfectly capable of supporting kernel/user mode split (and even hardware virtualization on the G2), so making a sandbox in a separate address space (or even a VM on the G2) is possible. What is hard is making that split air tight, especially if you provide a wide attack surface by providing lots of APIs, and I certainly understand Cyrille's reluctance to go down that road.

There is the option to provide a non-native environment like WebAssembly that has wide support in the industry. There are runtimes available under permissive free software licenses and it's potentially easier to secure, especially if it's a simple bytecode interpreter. There's still the problem of the attack surface if you want extensive access to the firmware's features.

But since the HP Prime is currently more-or-less on hold, the only two options I see for now would be to either write a transpiler to HP PPL or write a WebAssembly interpreter in HP PPL. It wouldn't require HP's cooperation and it would effectively make third-party code behave as "normal" programs on the calculator. Would either of these options be an acceptable workaround for HP Prime power users?

[Stevetuc]

(01-24-2021 12:42 PM)Jean-Baptiste Boric Wrote:  

(01-24-2021 11:09 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Another way to handle this issue could be to provide an I/O port in the firmware to allow external code to run, like the 3rd party Omega firmware for Numworks does.
Cyrille mentioned this would have security implications because of exam mode, but I would argue that the I/O port could be firmly closed with exam mode activated, preventing any 3rd party code running on the calc.
Of course I'm hoping HP continue to support the Prime into the future and release Python and other goodies but having the I/O port would open the way to adding things like Fourier Transform and other code where the licensing prevents it being integrated into the firmware.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring at on the NumWorks. There's no particular I/O port for running external code, you just flash a firmware that runs your code. Omega has support for external apps, which are just files held in external flash that you jump into. [..]

I was referring to the readme on Github for external Omega apps which describes:
"The base firmware image is a fork of https://github.com/numworks/epsilon including the "external" application and an API for accessing base functionality of epsilon"
https://github.com/zardam/nw-external-apps
This external application and API for accessing base functionality of the firmware seemed like it could be described as I/O, given that an API is a software intermediary that allows two applications to talk to each other.
But I'm new to using the N110 having just got mine from santa

[Tim Wessman]

Hello,

I am good. Past year was rather eventful. In Feb or so wife of 15 years announced completely out of the blue she was moving out and wanted divorce. After a few months, I realized I had been pretty unhappy and depressed for quite a few years, and we were both happier with being apart. Three kids are doing great, learning mandarin, and are fine primarily because it was not a nasty thing; they switch back and forth regularly, we still do dinners together with everyone sometimes, etc. We are both moving forward as close good friends, but now legally divorced - still in Taiwan and loving it here.

Hard for me to get really involved publicly on calcs though because a lot of the passion I had before seems tied with the "old me". Don't cry for me, or worry about me. I honestly am happier now then i was for probably 4/5 years.