News from Swiss Micros

[Thomas Okken]

(06-01-2021 05:47 AM)3298 Wrote:  

(06-01-2021 05:19 AM)Marco Polo Wrote:  AFAIK, NEWRPL does not rely upon Saturn.
It should run on 50g in Arm native mode.

Exactly. That's how we know they are not working on a newRPL-based machine.

We know nothing of the kind. Saturn emulation means the machine will be capable of running HP ROMs, but legal constraints mean it probably won't come with an HP ROM preinstalled. What will be preinstalled is anyone's guess at this point.

[Namir]

(05-31-2021 06:43 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  Michael Steinmann of SwissMicros video says ...

• Entry level calculator
• RPN operation
• Keystroke programmable
• Direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures
• Based on Saturn CPU emulation
• Past concept stage, so possibly at prototype or alpha level
• a new model is on the horizon ... and more ...
  

This is

• not a 71B
• not a RPL machine
• probably not running pre-1983 ROM's (Saturn CPU is different from previous generation CPU)
• probably not running the Pionner ROM's (direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures)
  

My current take is, this is running an SM from ground up calculator implementation. Why using Saturn CPU emulation if that is the case, this is anyone guess.
Sylvain
PS: the "and more ..." comment at the end seems to indicate that they will be several calculators made on this new hardware/software platform.

Sylvain,

I think you nailed it! I share your opinion.

Namir

[Christoph Giesselink]

Some words to

"Based on Saturn CPU emulation"

As the name say, we are speaking about a CPU or about a CPU core.

The Saturn CPU actually come in four flavors, three in hardware and one in software.

Generally we devide into "level 0", "level 1" and "level 2" instructions, where "level 0" only was used in the 1LF2 CPU, "level 1" instructions in the 1LK7 CPU and "level 2" in all later CPU cores like in the 1LR2. Finally we have the "level 3" instruction set in the "Saturnator", a software based CPU core emulation used the the Apple series calculators.

But a CPU makes no calculator, you need additional peripheral like "reset generation", "oszillators", "timer(s)", RAM, ROM, display (controller), display (driver) and a keyboard interface.

In the early Saturn calculators (71B, 18C, 28C) we have the physical 1LF2 or 1LK7 CPU chip and additional peripheral chips. The next and all later generations use SoC combining a CPU core with peripheral on one chip.

Lets have a look on famous Pioneer calculator generation:

We have three types of Pioneer calculators, I like to speak about the "Low End", "Mid Range" and "High End" Pioneers.

"Low End"

The "Low End" Pioneers HP-10B, HP-20S and HP-21S with the 7-segment display use the 1LU7 SoC containing the CPU core and all peripheral (oszillator, timer, RAM, ROM, display controller with display drivers, keyboard interface, ...).

"Mid Range"

The "Mid Range" Pioneers HP-14B, HP-22S, HP-32S and HP-32SII with the dot-matrix-segment display use the 1LR3 SoC containing the CPU core and all peripheral.

"High End"

The "High End" Pioneers HP-17B, HP-17BII, HP-27S and HP42S with the graphic display use the 1LR2 SoC containing the CPU core and all peripheral with the exception of "User RAM". The Display-RAM is still part of the SoC.

So calculator emulators for the Pioneers, like my Emu42, or other calculators needs a lot more than a "Saturn based CPU emulation" to run an original HP ROM image. What I don't understand, why emulating such a crippled CPU when you don't have the legal possibility to sell them with original ROM images?

[Peet]

The whole announcement was quite spongy and bumpy, it looked like he wanted to get out the announced May news in a hurry.

Maybe he was a little confused and didn't mean a Saturn emulation, but a calculator that simulates a model that had a Saturn - like the DM42 e.g. a model with characteristics from the 32S or 27S.

Overall, there was not enough information in the video to have an idea of what was coming.

Perhaps the most Interesting information was that SM is still working on new models or maybe even a new line.

[Garth Wilson]

I wish they would bring back HPIL. HPIL was the entire reason I got into the 41cx, after being a TI-58c and -59 user. (It's not that the 41 wasn't very much superior to the TI's—it was, of course—but without HPIL and the accompanying interface converters to IEEE-488 primarily, followed by RS-232 and finally parallel, I never would have made the leap.)

[toml_12953]

(06-03-2021 08:31 AM)Garth Wilson Wrote:  I wish they would bring back HPIL. HPIL was the entire reason I got into the 41cx, after being a TI-58c and -59 user. (It's not that the 41 wasn't very much superior to the TI's—it was, of course—but without HPIL and the accompanying interface converters to IEEE-488 primarily, followed by RS-232 and finally parallel, I never would have made the leap.)

Yes! That's why I wonder why people buy the SwissMicros 41x. The only advantage I can see to the 41 series was the interface to external hardware.

[mfleming]

(06-03-2021 01:56 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  

(06-03-2021 08:31 AM)Garth Wilson Wrote:  I wish they would bring back HPIL. HPIL was the entire reason I got into the 41cx, after being a TI-58c and -59 user. (It's not that the 41 wasn't very much superior to the TI's—it was, of course—but without HPIL and the accompanying interface converters to IEEE-488 primarily, followed by RS-232 and finally parallel, I never would have made the leap.)

Yes! That's why I wonder why people buy the SwissMicros 41x. The only advantage I can see to the 41 series was the interface to external hardware.

I agree with both of you. There was some talk in the early stages of development of supporting hpil over usb as with the PIL-Box communicating with pyilper. If that is done by SM or a third party, that might persuade me to get a 41x. More so if the PIL-Box could be used to connect to real hpil devices.

If we're making a wishlist of next projects from SM, I'd love to see a 27S with expanded memory and some of the Solver extensions mentioned by Thomas for the plus42. Solving problems by describing them as a set of interrelated equations and then observing the effect of altering the initial state is a wholly different mode of thinking than the methodical step by step programming approach.

[Peet]

(06-03-2021 01:56 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  Yes! That's why I wonder why people buy the SwissMicros 41x. The only advantage I can see to the 41 series was the interface to external hardware.

I suspect that the users who bought the HP41 because of the IL are in the per mille range. The IL came a long time after the HP-41C and 41CV were already successfull.

The more relavant features was the alphanumeric display and external data carrier (magnet cards and modules) which the DM41X compensates with the USB-port.

The HP41 was the first mobile, alphanumeric programable handheld. Practically the grandfather of all the devices taken for granted today like the iPhone.

[Garth Wilson]

(06-03-2021 05:58 PM)Peet Wrote:  The IL came a long time after the HP-41C and 41CV were already successful.

I have not been able to find exact dates; but a web search tells me the cv was introduced sometime in 1980, and the date on my 82160A HPIL module is Feb '81, not much later. The idea to develop HPIL began in 1976.

Quote:The more relevant features was the alphanumeric display and external data carrier (magnet cards and modules) which the DM41X compensates with the USB-port.

I'm sure glad the 41 has the four ports in the end. The TI-58c & 59 only had one, and it could only hold user-language ROM routines, no I/O, no added RAM, and no machine-language routines. I do not consider USB to be a suitable substitute for HPIL though. The USB spec precludes a hand-held device from being a controller, and normally one port goes to only one device. I've had my HPIL connected to a half-dozen devices at once. A MicroSD card slot would sure be a welcome addition though.

Quote:The HP41 was the first mobile, alphanumeric programmable handheld. Practically the grandfather of all the devices taken for granted today like the iPhone.

I still use mine for some of the functions some people use their smartphones for (and I don't use a smartphone at all).

[toml_12953]

(06-04-2021 02:14 AM)Garth Wilson Wrote:  I'm sure glad the 41 has the four ports in the end. The TI-58c & 59 only had one, and it could only hold user-language ROM routines, no I/O, no added RAM, and no machine-language routines.

They (along with the SR-52 and TI-56) also had a bidirectional I/O port (usually used for a PC-100 printer) port in the battery compartment. Many clever folks came up with remote programmers and other peripherals for them.

[Garth Wilson]

(06-04-2021 02:49 AM)toml_12953 Wrote:  

(06-04-2021 02:14 AM)Garth Wilson Wrote:  I'm sure glad the 41 has the four ports in the end. The TI-58c & 59 only had one, and it could only hold user-language ROM routines, no I/O, no added RAM, and no machine-language routines.

They (along with the SR-52 and TI-56) also had a bidirectional I/O port (usually used for a PC-100 printer) port in the battery compartment. Many clever folks came up with remote programmers and other peripherals for them.

Ah yes, I forgot about that, even though I also have a PC-100C printer. I never heard of any one using that port for anything but the printer though.

[Peet]

(06-04-2021 02:14 AM)Garth Wilson Wrote:  I do not consider USB to be a suitable substitute for HPIL though.

Maybe not a substitute for IL but for many other peripherals like the Card-Reader (through .raw-files) or Modules (.mod).

Even without IL, the DM41X is interesting for many users and a possibility to use HP41 programs on a native device.

I can understand that some users also want an IL replacement, but contrary to what toml_12953 said, this is not the only thing that made an HP41 interesting.

[toml_12953]

(06-04-2021 06:08 AM)Peet Wrote:  I can understand that some users also want an IL replacement, but contrary to what toml_12953 said, this is not the only thing that made an HP41 interesting.

I didn't say that it was the only thing that made it interesting. In fact quite the opposite for many people. That's why I was wondering why. The only reason it would be interesting to me would be for peripheral interfacing. If not for that, then any RPN calculator (such as the HP42S) could be used.

[Peet]

(06-04-2021 09:25 AM)toml_12953 Wrote:  The only reason it would be interesting to me would be for peripheral interfacing. If not for that, then any RPN calculator (such as the HP42S) could be used.

In addition to the outstanding display, the HP41 was the first calculator to have both, constant memory and an external storage (neither a HP67, TI58C or TI59 had this). The HP42S was not even close as an alternative because of the lack of external storage (I once lost all data on my 28S while changing the batteries).

I liked the fact that a small Swiss company brought a homage to the HP41 for the 41st anniversary, while HP itself ignored this.

Except for IL, the DM41X offers everything (or equivalent alternatives) that the original HP41 offered.
I think it would be great for the IL fans if the "more" of DM also included an IL replacement for the DM41X, but I'm afraid that is not the case.

[tonic]

(05-31-2021 06:43 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  Michael Steinmann of SwissMicros video says ...

• Entry level calculator
• RPN operation
• Keystroke programmable
• Direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures
• Based on Saturn CPU emulation
• Past concept stage, so possibly at prototype or alpha level
• a new model is on the horizon ... and more ...
  

This is

• not a 71B
• not a RPL machine
• probably not running pre-1983 ROM's (Saturn CPU is different from previous generation CPU)
• probably not running the Pionner ROM's (direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures)
  

My current take is, this is running an SM from ground up calculator implementation. Why using Saturn CPU emulation if that is the case, this is anyone guess.
Sylvain
PS: the "and more ..." comment at the end seems to indicate that they will be several calculators made on this new hardware/software platform.

For me it looks like the DM42L, according to the company's history it passed prototype stage and matches the criteria listed above.

[Luigi Vampa]

All we have so far is our wishes and guesses.
Unfortunately, there was no announcement at HHC 2021.
Awaiting for news from SM, but Christmas time is around the corner 8O)

Edit: PS: My personal wish... a more compact version of the DM42, closer to the HP42 look.

[Peet]

(10-06-2021 10:39 AM)tonic Wrote:  

(05-31-2021 06:43 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  Michael Steinmann of SwissMicros video says ...

• Entry level calculator
• Direct access to all functions without complicated menu structures
• Based on Saturn CPU emulation
  

For me it looks like the DM42L, ...

LOL

[15-lennyphelan]

I would wrassle a horny gator for a DM-50. swissmicros makes seriously good products. I wonder if they're hiring

[mfleming]

(10-14-2021 01:10 AM)15-lennyphelan Wrote:  I would wrassle a horny gator for a DM-50

But only with the Enter key in the right place

[Dave Britten]

(10-14-2021 11:32 AM)mfleming Wrote:  

(10-14-2021 01:10 AM)15-lennyphelan Wrote:  I would wrassle a horny gator for a DM-50

But only with the Enter key in the right place

On the calculator, or the gator?