Sharp PC-E500S or Sharp PC-G850VS?

[jonmoore]

Hi, I've been through the threads here on the museum forums regarding both of these Sharp models and am currently using pocketemul on Android to assess the PC-E500S model. I would be assessing the G850VS too but this is strewn with unworkable bugs in pocketemul. On the other hand, the PC-E500S emulation is excellent and you're able to set it up to have both 256k internal memory and 256k external RAM card memory - which is super useful as the Sharp is comparable to the HP71B in terms of its internal file system.

You can still pick up a G850VS for a reasonable price, whereas the E500S comes with a heavy premium (much like the 71B), but my gut instinct is to hunt for an E500S in decent condition, but I'm looking for advice regarding this choice.

I'm leaning towards the E500S because I have no interest in assembly language programming and Basic implementation on G850VS appears to be compromised in comparison to the E500S. I have relatively good knowledge of C-like languages but yet again the G850VS implementation of C doesn't appear to have the richness of the mathematical capabilities of the E500S (or the 71B with Math Pac for that matter).

So the key question is whether my instincts are right?

I know the best answer is to get both but I don't think I'm willing to part with that amount of cash (certainly not in one shot), seeing as I'll need to put aside funds for RAM cards and suchlike too.

Any thoughts?

[toml_12953]

(06-16-2022 09:06 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  Hi, I've been through the threads here on the museum forums regarding both of these Sharp models and am currently using pocketemul on Android to assess the PC-E500S model. I would be assessing the G850VS too but this is strewn with unworkable bugs in pocketemul. On the other hand, the PC-E500S emulation is excellent and you're able to set it up to have both 256k internal memory and 256k external RAM card memory - which is super useful as the Sharp is comparable to the HP71B in terms of its internal file system.

You can still pick up a G850VS for a reasonable price, whereas the E500S comes with a heavy premium (much like the 71B), but my gut instinct is to hunt for an E500S in decent condition, but I'm looking for advice regarding this choice.

I'm leaning towards the E500S because I have no interest in assembly language programming and Basic implementation on G850VS appears to be compromised in comparison to the E500S. I have relatively good knowledge of C-like languages but yet again the G850VS implementation of C doesn't appear to have the richness of the mathematical capabilities of the E500S (or the 71B with Math Pac for that matter).

So the key question is whether my instincts are right?

I know the best answer is to get both but I don't think I'm willing to part with that amount of cash (certainly not in one shot), seeing as I'll need to put aside funds for RAM cards and suchlike too.

Any thoughts?

Where can you get a 256K internal RAM model or 256K RAM cards? The largest I could find is a 32K internal and 64K external unit. Are these third-party mods? If so is there a website that shows how to do them?

[jonmoore]

(06-16-2022 06:17 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  

(06-16-2022 09:06 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  Hi, I've been through the threads here on the museum forums regarding both of these Sharp models and am currently using pocketemul on Android to assess the PC-E500S model. I would be assessing the G850VS too but this is strewn with unworkable bugs in pocketemul. On the other hand, the PC-E500S emulation is excellent and you're able to set it up to have both 256k internal memory and 256k external RAM card memory - which is super useful as the Sharp is comparable to the HP71B in terms of its internal file system.

You can still pick up a G850VS for a reasonable price, whereas the E500S comes with a heavy premium (much like the 71B), but my gut instinct is to hunt for an E500S in decent condition, but I'm looking for advice regarding this choice.

I'm leaning towards the E500S because I have no interest in assembly language programming and Basic implementation on G850VS appears to be compromised in comparison to the E500S. I have relatively good knowledge of C-like languages but yet again the G850VS implementation of C doesn't appear to have the richness of the mathematical capabilities of the E500S (or the 71B with Math Pac for that matter).

So the key question is whether my instincts are right?

I know the best answer is to get both but I don't think I'm willing to part with that amount of cash (certainly not in one shot), seeing as I'll need to put aside funds for RAM cards and suchlike too.

Any thoughts?

Where can you get a 256K internal RAM model or 256K RAM cards? The largest I could find is a 32K internal and 64K external unit. Are these third-party mods? If so is there a website that shows how to do them?

In the emulator, not the physical calculator.

[rprosperi]

(06-16-2022 06:17 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  Where can you get a 256K internal RAM model or 256K RAM cards? The largest I could find is a 32K internal and 64K external unit. Are these third-party mods? If so is there a website that shows how to do them?

Tom,

This online seller in Japan sells and ships to USA. They have RAM and FRAM cards in various sizes, RS-232 & USB cables, etc.; lot's of accessories for Sharp Pocket Computers. I have not purchased from here yet myself, but other Forum members have and reported reliable results. The website can be 'google-translated' fairly completely, so you can better understand how the cards can/can't be used, but I'd suggest emailing him prior to ordering to ensure what you want to purchase is correct and clear to him.

https://tmfg.jp/products/list?category_id=17

[mfleming]

(06-16-2022 09:06 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  So the key question is whether my instincts are right?

I know the best answer is to get both but I don't think I'm willing to part with that amount of cash (certainly not in one shot), seeing as I'll need to put aside funds for RAM cards and suchlike too.

Any thoughts?

The G850 targeted the education market. Judging by the faceplate the E500 targeted professionals. I suppose you could list the E500 features not found in the 850 and see if they can be implemented in BASIC. Or pay four or five times as much for a 500, when you find one

BTW, easy to make a serial cable to transfer files between the 850 and PC.

[Helix]

(06-16-2022 09:06 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  You can still pick up a G850VS for a reasonable price, whereas the E500S comes with a heavy premium (much like the 71B), but my gut instinct is to hunt for an E500S in decent condition, but I'm looking for advice regarding this choice.

I have both, but I've used only the E500S so far.
What the emulator can't tell you is that the E500S is really huge. The G850VS is thicker, but not so large.
On the other side, the display of the G850VS has a superb contrast, and bigger characters, which can be useful. However the display of the E500S is not bad.

One of the greatest points of the E500S for me is the ability to program it in Forth, with a modern and very complete Forth system:
https://github.com/Robert-van-Engelen/Forth500

[jonmoore]

(06-16-2022 11:18 PM)Helix Wrote:  

(06-16-2022 09:06 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  You can still pick up a G850VS for a reasonable price, whereas the E500S comes with a heavy premium (much like the 71B), but my gut instinct is to hunt for an E500S in decent condition, but I'm looking for advice regarding this choice.

I have both, but I've used only the E500S so far.
What the emulator can't tell you is that the E500S is really huge. The G850VS is thicker, but not so large.
On the other side, the display of the G850VS has a superb contrast, and bigger characters, which can be useful. However the display of the E500S is not bad.

One of the greatest points of the E500S for me is the ability to program it in Forth, with a modern and very complete Forth system:
https://github.com/Robert-van-Engelen/Forth500

I have no issues with the physical dimensions of the E500S, I'm not looking for something pocketable. If I want a mobile 'pocket computer' I'll reach for an RPL calculator (28/48 or 50). My experience in purchasing classic HP calculators is that I regret purchasing items that are 'compromised' (in terms of my idealised features) and realise that I would have been better off purchasing the overpriced premium items in the first place.

With regards to classic pocket calculators, I only have a Casio fx-880p so far, and I'm very happy with it but it lacks in terms of its file system (a characteristic that afflicts all Casio pocket computers AFAIK).

A HP-91b is too rich for my blood, as they're particularly expensive here in the UK when they come up for auction, particularly by the time you factor in import duties, 20%VAT and transit costs. The one rare UK listing on eBay that I've seen in recent months is currently £200 and there's still 24 hours to go (and has plenty of watchers so I can see it eventually selling for £300 - £400 by the time the auction closes).

The G850VS sells for £100-£150. And the less crazy 500S's go for £200-£250 (inc VAT, transit and import duties).

My experience with the 500S emulator, mixed with the info I've gleaned via Marcus Von Cubes' excellent comparison tables (and comparing various official docs or their translation in the case of the 850VS), has brought me to the conclusion that the 500S is my best option. A HP91B with Math Pac and RAM would be my desert island choice, but my partner might issue divorce papers should she realise how much I've 'squandered' on that particular plaything!

[Steve Simpkin]

(06-17-2022 09:24 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  ...

My experience with the 500S emulator, mixed with the info I've gleaned via Marcus Von Cubes' excellent comparison tables (and comparing various official docs or their translation in the case of the 850VS), has brought me to the conclusion that the 500S is my best option. A HP91B with Math Pac and RAM would be my desert island choice, but my partner might issue divorce papers should she realise how much I've 'squandered' on that particular plaything!

"My greatest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my calculators for what I told her I paid for them."

[jonmoore]

(06-17-2022 10:53 AM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  

(06-17-2022 09:24 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  ...

My experience with the 500S emulator, mixed with the info I've gleaned via Marcus Von Cubes' excellent comparison tables (and comparing various official docs or their translation in the case of the 850VS), has brought me to the conclusion that the 500S is my best option. A HP91B with Math Pac and RAM would be my desert island choice, but my partner might issue divorce papers should she realise how much I've 'squandered' on that particular plaything!

"My greatest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my calculators for what I told her I paid for them."

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(06-17-2022 10:53 AM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  "My greatest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my calculators for what I told her I paid for them."

The trick is to tell her that you've always been so cunning to buy them for a fraction of their true value.

However, when we've gone, we've gone. Why bother? ;)

[xerxes]

(06-17-2022 09:24 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  With regards to classic pocket calculators, I only have a Casio fx-880p so far, and I'm very happy with it but it lacks in terms of its file system (a characteristic that afflicts all Casio pocket computers AFAIK).

The PB-1000 and PB-2000C have an excellent file system. AFAIK the Z-1GR has a ramdisk.

[jonmoore]

(06-17-2022 06:15 PM)xerxes Wrote:  

(06-17-2022 09:24 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  With regards to classic pocket calculators, I only have a Casio fx-880p so far, and I'm very happy with it but it lacks in terms of its file system (a characteristic that afflicts all Casio pocket computers AFAIK).

The PB-1000 and PB-2000C have an excellent file system. AFAIK the Z-1GR has a ramdisk.

I hadn't realised those later education models have a file system. But it makes sense given that they were created for the Japanese education system.

I'll definitely give them a closer look in PockEmul. But my gut feeling is that they excel more as C machines (much like the Sharp G850). Luckily there are English docs available.

[xerxes]

In fact the Z-1GR is a later educational pocket and similar to the PC-G850V. The PB-1000 however is a classic pocket computer
with BASIC and assembly language. The PB-2000C is an upgrade with built-in C and ROM cards for BASIC, Prolog, CASL and PASCAL.
The japanese version of the PB-2000C, the AI-1000 has a built-in LISP instead of C. The PASCAL card is a native code compiler
and very close to Turbo-Pascal 5.0. Forth is also available for the PB-1000.

[jonmoore]

(06-17-2022 11:02 PM)xerxes Wrote:  In fact the Z-1GR is a later educational pocket and similar to the PC-G850V. The PB-1000 however is a classic pocket computer
with BASIC and assembly language. The PB-2000C is an upgrade with built-in C and ROM cards for BASIC, Prolog, CASL and PASCAL.
The japanese version of the PB-2000C, the AI-1000 has a built-in LISP instead of C. The PASCAL card is a native code compiler
and very close to Turbo-Pascal 5.0. Forth is also available for the PB-1000.

I know all about the older PB-1000/C and PB-2000C and was only referring to the later models as an early 80's pocket computer isn't part of my consideration set. It's not my intention to collect multiple pocket computer examples but I might explore more of the emulations in PockEmul (all of the models we're discussing are available in the Android version).

And as mentioned in my original post, it's the Basic/Math implementations that interest me most. Although it was interesting to see that the C implementation on those later Casio models is deeper than the C implementation in the G850V/S. My interest in pocket computers has more to do with fond memories of programming in Basic in the 80s than in using faster compilable languages that deliver peak performance.

The crux of what I'm looking for is a later example of a pocket computer, with a reasonably speedy processor and a rich extensive math library. I get the appeal of the Z-1GR or even the earlier Casio examples you mention, it's just that they don't scratch my particular itch.

[xerxes]

(06-18-2022 01:04 PM)jonmoore Wrote:  I know all about the older PB-1000/C and PB-2000C ...

And as mentioned in my original post, it's the Basic/Math implementations that interest me most.

Sorry, apparently I've misinterpreted your answer. I would also prefer the PC-E500S as a Basic/Math pocket.

[jonmoore]

(06-18-2022 01:21 PM)xerxes Wrote:  

(06-18-2022 01:04 PM)jonmoore Wrote:  I know all about the older PB-1000/C and PB-2000C ...

And as mentioned in my original post, it's the Basic/Math implementations that interest me most.

Sorry, apparently I've misinterpreted your answer. I would also prefer the PC-E500S as a Basic/Math pocket.

And that's the model I've identified (as can be seen in the title of the thread). The core question I was asking when I posted this thread was whether I'm showing a bias against the capabilities of the G850VS (with regards to its Basic/Math capabilities), as I know a reasonable number of forum regulars have purchased one in the last few years or so.

But don't worry, your replies have been useful too, as I had no intention of exploring the later Casio models in PockEmul (there are after all only so many tinkering hours in a day!).

[rprosperi]

According to the Sharp engineers that made them, the PC-E500/E500S would have the best math capabilities for engineering use, some functions were removed (or deemed less necessary) for the G850V, which was targeted at educational markets. By the time the G850V was introduced (~93), PCs were becoming mainstream and widely replacing pocket computers for technical use.

That said, the manuals for both are available (various links here) and can be readily compared to assess which functions they provide; I believe you'll find the BASIC language itself is quite similar, but not exactly the same.

The E500/E500S uses the ESR-L ("Electronic Slide Rule, version L) CPU, an 8-bit CMOS custom Sharp processor (same as used in the Wizard/IQ organizer models), while the G850V uses a Z80 clone.

[jonmoore]

(06-18-2022 02:47 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  According to the Sharp engineers that made them, the PC-E500/E500S would have the best math capabilities for engineering use, some functions were removed (or deemed less necessary) for the G850V, which was targeted at educational markets. By the time the G850V was introduced (~93), PCs were becoming mainstream and widely replacing pocket computers for technical use.

That said, the manuals for both are available (various links here) and can be readily compared to assess which functions they provide; I believe you'll find the BASIC language itself is quite similar, but not exactly the same.

The E500/E500S uses the ESR-L ("Electronic Slide Rule, version L) CPU, an 8-bit CMOS custom Sharp processor (same as used in the Wizard/IQ organizer models), while the G850V uses a Z80 clone.

Thanks Bob.

As I mentioned in my first post, I've already devoured all of the E500/E500S/G850V/S threads of the last 5(ish) years here on the forum. And read all available English PDF docs (both original and v3 of the G850V community translation), and finally Marcus Von Cubes excellent spreadsheet that digs into a lot of the comparative detail of various manufacturers' efforts over the years).

I was aware that you worked for Sharp in a previous life so I'm glad to get your perspective on things. And the lengthy G850V/S forum thread from 2017ish showed that a reasonable number of forum regulars had purchased G850V/S's from Japan given the high-quality translation docs that were being developed at the time (I forget the chap's name that was mainly responsible for the effort).

But even with all that meat to chew on, nothing beats a POV or two from folk that own both models, especially if it's framed by the specifics of what I was asking ref the Basic and Math implementations.

Funnily enough, one of the things that's come out in the wash ref the later education market Casio models is that they include the C Math Library (something that's missing on the G850V/S). And given that the C implementation is interpreted (no need to compile) I maybe wouldn't need to be so nervous ref critically ballsing things up with bad memory pointers and suchlike. I'm definitely going to be spending as much time as possible with the Casio Z-1GR emulation in PockEmul before finalising on a Sharp PC-E500S purchase (it's fair to say that this is my prime candidate right now).

Thanks for filling in some of the blanks.

[toml_12953]

(06-17-2022 06:15 PM)xerxes Wrote:  

(06-17-2022 09:24 AM)jonmoore Wrote:  With regards to classic pocket calculators, I only have a Casio fx-880p so far, and I'm very happy with it but it lacks in terms of its file system (a characteristic that afflicts all Casio pocket computers AFAIK).

The PB-1000 and PB-2000C have an excellent file system. AFAIK the Z-1GR has a ramdisk.

The Z-1GR(A) (and fx-890p) can use a floppy disk drive for files. They can also save/load files to the RS-232 port so you can use a PC as the disk drive.

[jonmoore]

Thanks Tom.

With regards to file system, I'm talking about the internal RAM disk or failing that external RAM card. I've seen PC-E500S units come up for sale with 256k internal storage (possibly retrofit for the Japanese market). I've not seen the later Casio models for sale with 256k internal memory but given that PockEmul offers 256K internal memory on those later Casio models, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that hardware configurations of that nature are available.