stack lift and change sign

[walter b]

(08-28-2014 08:07 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  

(08-28-2014 02:21 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  The 20b/30b calculators offer an additional entry line different from the x-register (like in the G-models) and so eliminate the need for fancy stack lifting tricks.

We were discussing this here for the 34S ad nauseam. The majority of the forum members participating in the discussion wanted the "classic" behavior of ENTER, not the command line variant implemented by the 20b/30b and the RPL machines.

Exactly. May well depend on the way you learned first.

@Thomas R.: Please elaborate a bit about the 'fancy stack lifting tricks' you mentioned. Thanks in advance.

@ElectroDuende: Man are you lucky! The HP 30b wasn't mentioned in the test cases of the OP and you get away with it nonetheless.

d:-)

[Paul Dale]

(08-28-2014 08:07 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  The majority of the forum members participating in the discussion wanted the "classic" behavior of ENTER, not the command line variant implemented by the 20b/30b and the RPL machines. I feel the latter to be more intuitive than the former.

I prefer the command line version in many ways too.

It is also worth mentioning that supporting the stack lift behaviour has been the cause of quite a few bugs and a reasonable smattering of code.


- Pauli

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-28-2014 08:07 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  I feel the latter to be more intuitive than the former.

Same here. Some votes probably founded in nostalgia more than in reason. Mine did for sure. Doesn't matter, you (as a group) did it and it works apparently.

Erm ... the 43 will feature an entry line by chance? ;-p

[d b]

(08-27-2014 07:40 PM)Andreas Wrote:  Den, you didn't answer and regard my last PM to you.
Andreas

Hi Andreas;
Sorry I didn't get back to you. The excuse is that I've had a couple of batches of long days in the last couple of weeks and i've had to use my time in order of personal importance. The reason is that we each stated our thoughts and i figured that any more of that on my part is harping and ranting. I should answer PMs though. So, as they say; "you've got mail".....or will have in a few minutes.

[walter b]

(08-27-2014 06:41 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  We are only going on, teasing each other for our respective preferences, but no offence taken and - hopefully - given.

But I understand this is a little childish ...

... unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven ...

d:-)

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(08-29-2014 09:15 AM)walter b Wrote:  ... unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven ... :)

d:-)

Why should I turn? Let's go straight on!
Oh and I do live in a (banana) republic. ;)

Another useless post, alas... :)

[walter b]

(08-29-2014 09:29 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Why should I turn?

Massimo, I was just quoting somebody (to be on the safe side, you know).

d:-)

[walter b]

(08-28-2014 10:17 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Erm ... the 43 will feature an entry line by chance?

Hmmmh, what would be the benefit over classic RPN?

d:-?

[ElectroDuende]

@walter b: Just wanted to increase the test spectrum...

:-P

By the way, I also prefer the "enter line" version, maybe because an HP48G was my first (and only) RPN calculator for a long time.

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-29-2014 12:55 PM)walter b Wrote:  Hmmmh, what would be the benefit over classic RPN?

Lesser amount of fancy stack lifting tricks needed :-D.

Easier to program (maybe bugfree from the start?) - easier to learn (attractive to new RPN-users) - easier to document (shouldn't you be happy about this one?).

And all this without reasonable disadvantages!

[walter b]

(08-29-2014 01:10 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 12:55 PM)walter b Wrote:  Hmmmh, what would be the benefit over classic RPN?

Lesser amount of fancy stack lifting tricks needed :-D.

Easier to program (maybe bugfree from the start?) - easier to learn (attractive to new RPN-users) - easier to document (shouldn't you be happy about this one?).

And all this without reasonable disadvantages!

You still owe me an explanation what you mean by 'fancy stack lifting tricks'. Also the other statements are only unproven claims so far - please provide evidence.

And about the documentation: I've got the docs ready for classic RPN - so any deviation would cost effort.

d:-)

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-29-2014 01:25 PM)walter b Wrote:  You still owe me an explanation what you mean by 'fancy stack lifting tricks'.

What was a plea yesterday did not become an obligation today.

(08-29-2014 01:25 PM)walter b Wrote:  Also the other statements are only unproven claims [...]

... backuped by countless posts. Last one contributed by Paul Dale concerning implementation bugs.

(08-29-2014 01:25 PM)walter b Wrote:  And about the documentation: I've got the docs ready for classic RPN - so any deviation would cost effort.

A good technical writer (1) gives feedback to the engineers - if something looks too complex in the docs, it most likely is. It is in his own interest to keep things easy - and (2) tests if his docs are still up to date. Very few things to check using RPN w/ entry line.

[walter b]

You introduced that term 'fancy stack lifting tricks', so I think it's no more than fair that you give evidence why you think it's properly named this way. As you wrote, your first HP was an HP-48 - my first was an HP-25C. So what each of us regards being fancy may differ significantly.

(08-29-2014 01:43 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 01:25 PM)walter b Wrote:  Also the other statements are only unproven claims [...]

... backuped by countless posts. Last one contributed by Paul Dale concerning implementation bugs.

Just a few real world examples would be better than merely claiming 'countless posts'. And AFAICS, there isn't any virulent implementation bug regarding stack handling in the latest build of WP 34S. It works following classic RPN as advertized. If I missed something then please enlighten me. TIA.

d:-?

P.S.: How do you want to know the present manuals are complex? Applied clairvoyance??

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-29-2014 02:04 PM)walter b Wrote:  As you wrote, your first HP was an HP-48 [...]

Where did I wrote this?

(08-29-2014 02:04 PM)walter b Wrote:  And AFAICS, there isn't any virulent implementation bug regarding stack handling in the latest build of WP 34S.

Where did I claimed the opposite?

[walter b]

(08-29-2014 02:13 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 02:04 PM)walter b Wrote:  As you wrote, your first HP was an HP-48 [...]

Where did I wrote this?

Sorry, confused you with ElectroDuende.

(08-29-2014 02:13 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 02:04 PM)walter b Wrote:  And AFAICS, there isn't any virulent implementation bug regarding stack handling in the latest build of WP 34S.

Where did I claimed the opposite?

Above. But if I misunderstood your statement there then everything is fine and no pressing need to change the UI. So we can lay back and wait for the examples ...

d:-)

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-29-2014 02:25 PM)walter b Wrote:  Above.

My reference to Paul Dales post? Neither he (I guess) nor I were talking about a recent firmware.

I'll stop discussing this at this point as I think it is quite fruitless.

[walter b]

(08-29-2014 02:37 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  I'll stop discussing this at this point as I think it is quite fruitless.

Please note you stop it at the very point where you are due presenting examples proving your claims that 'Entry RPN' has advantages over classic RPN.

d:-/

[Mark Hardman]

(08-29-2014 09:15 AM)walter b Wrote:  

(08-27-2014 06:41 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  We are only going on, teasing each other for our respective preferences, but no offence taken and - hopefully - given.

But I understand this is a little childish ...

... unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven ...

d:-)

Matthew 18:3
καὶ εἶπεν• ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐὰν μὴ στραφῆτε καὶ γένησθε ὡς τὰ παιδία, οὐ μὴ εἰσέλθητε εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν.

παιδία in this verse would mean "young child" or "child below the age of puberty".

There is a difference between being "childlike" and "childish". If being childish were a condition for entering the kingdom of heaven, then I think heaven would indeed be a very, very crowded place.

[walter b]

(08-29-2014 03:56 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  heaven would indeed be a very, very crowded place.

Oh, isn't it? Where else do all those good people go?

BTW, with mankind growing exponentially there are as many people dead as alive.

d:-)

[Mark Hardman]

(08-29-2014 04:11 PM)walter b Wrote:  Oh, isn't it? Where else do all those good people go?

I don't think the future is bright for any of us.

See: Heat death of the universe