HP Prime - worthy successor to HP-71B ?

[MikeSD]

(09-26-2017 03:36 PM)Vincent Weber Wrote:  

(09-26-2017 03:34 PM)Ángel Martin Wrote:  How about math, does the Prime match the *amazing* prowess of the 71 Math Pack?
And this is a tall order, mind you...

I would say yes... But you tell me !

But about a 1000 times faster than the 71B I'd suspect. Haven't seen a comparison, ut one of the cons of the 71B was sped and small memory size.

[KeithB]

Since I have both, I guess I have to put my oar in.

As was already said, the main advantage for the HP71 is I/O: the HPIL/GPIB/GPIO interface can let you control just about anything on the planet - and with an RPi ethernet bridge, you can control the rest. 8^)

Unlike some here, I really like the calculator mode. Because Sandia had limitations on calculators allowed in Secure areas, the HP71 just squeaked under the ban. (Sandia would have bought me a prime, but I would have had to leave it when I left)

The Prime is the first calculator I bought for myself since the '71, and I am amazed at its power. I don't do calculus often, but the Prime has handled everything I through at it. Calculations are much better in Algebraic textbook entry mode, with no ambiguity due to precedence. (I do have trouble telling the difference between subtraction and unary minus, though.

So, I like both, and they both have a place on my desk.

[dm319]

(09-27-2017 07:16 PM)pier4r Wrote:  So I don't get the "hate" part.

Sometimes this forum can remind me of this:


from this comic

[case2001]

The above comic is true of so many things in life!!

[Rolief_Rechner]

I gave in to getting a Prime when a nephew wanted one.
So I got two, one for him, one for me.
He loved his. I found mine to be an abomination.
Even in RPN mode, it just wasn't "right."
It wasn't until I saw Eddie Shore's video that RPN is not properly implemented in the Prime, which explained that.
I dislike putting my fingers on a screen, which the Prime loves to do.
Why I still use a "dumb" phone that is well, just a phone.
The traditional calculator interface has been through keys, which are the "magic."
Good keys, good machine. Lousy keys, useless machine.
The rechargeable battery is a turn-off. What happened to a quick change of coin cells or AAAs?
HP did a decent job on its latest remake of the 15c.
Why can't HP remake the 35s, the 48gx, with improvements?

Regards - RR

[polbit]

I enjoy programming on the devices themselves and 71B BASIC is the best implementation I've used on a handheld device. HPPL has the benefit of being much newer, yet it forces the use of BEGIN/END and semicolons. On a calculator...

On top of it, landscape QWERTY layouts are simply much better suited for programming. Prime is a PITA to write non-trivial programs on because of how much text entry you have to do.

Intended market for the two machines is of course very different as well. One was a tool for professionals and the other is a student's aid, since the professional market no longer exists in the modern era.

With that in mind, I don't think of the two as related.

[Thomas Radtke]

(01-09-2024 06:13 AM)Rolief_Rechner Wrote:  Why can't HP remake the 35s, the 48gx, with improvements?

It's expensive. The hardware is no longer available and the firmware would have to be rewritten from scratch to be manageable.

Anyway, why in the world would anyone want a 48GX these days? What's so bad about the 50g with its flash card interface and the improved firmware? Moravia would be insane to redesign a predecessor. I bet they even won't dare to bring the 50g back to market.

[Thomas Klemm]

(01-09-2024 12:33 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Anyway, why in the world would anyone want a 48GX these days?

• It has a double sized ENTER key.
• It can be programmed in Saturn assembly language.
• One was given to me as electronic waste for free.
  

[John Keith]

(01-09-2024 06:14 PM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:  

• It has a double sized ENTER key.
• It can be programmed in Saturn assembly language.
  
  

The 50g can be programmed in Saturn assembly, it even has the assembler built in.

A proper ENTER key, as well as a more sensible* keyboard layout would be nice to have.


* Opinions on what is "sensible" will vary...

[Rolief_Rechner]

Thomas Radtke wrote

"...why in the world would anyone want a 48GX these days?..."

Why in the world would HP do a 2nd remake of the 15c? Oh, because it is still much loved and in demand. People pay whatever price is asked for a remake. I didn't hesitate a second when it became available. Wonderful machine, thanks to all who contributed to it.

Let's use the oldest incentive on earth - money. For example, an engineer friend in adjacent office thought nothing of paying some $700 US last year for a NIP 48GX. He's not even using it yet. Hoping to keep the old unit going for whatever time left. But - now he has a spare. If HP were to do a remake of the 48 with improvements they'd sell every unit for whatever price they put on it.

regards - RR

[rprosperi]

(01-09-2024 09:47 PM)Rolief_Rechner Wrote:  ...
Let's use the oldest incentive on earth - money. For example, an engineer friend in adjacent office thought nothing of paying some $700 US last year for a NIP 48GX. He's not even using it yet. Hoping to keep the old unit going for whatever time left. But - now he has a spare. If HP were to do a remake of the 48 with improvements they'd sell every unit for whatever price they put on it.

They probably really would sell one (maybe even two) to everyone here, but that's sadly still not enough. The problem is, even when counting ALL of us, it's not a significant enough market to make an investment large enough to make an improved 48GX.

[Thomas Radtke]

(01-09-2024 06:14 PM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 12:33 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Anyway, why in the world would anyone want a 48GX these days?

• It has a double sized ENTER key.
• It can be programmed in Saturn assembly language.
• One was given to me as electronic waste for free.
  

Sure. I emphasized on the GX. I like the 48 series, too, but that interface seems to be obsolete.

To get a little closer to the topic again, making an emulator for the Prime along with differently labeled keys/top cover, maybe some glue code to adapt to a different keyboard, and there can be a 48/50 again on existing hardware.

That was my whole idea about the GX thing.

[Thomas Klemm]

(01-09-2024 09:25 PM)John Keith Wrote:  The 50g can be programmed in Saturn assembly, it even has the assembler built in.

I must have been living under a rock for all those years.
Somehow I had in mind that SysRPL is emulated but you could only write assembler code for the native processor.

So you're telling me that you can write assembler code for both, the native processor and the emulated Saturn processor?

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(01-10-2024 03:10 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  They probably really would sell one (maybe even two) to everyone here,...

No, not to everyone here.

Regards
Max

[Joe Horn]

(01-10-2024 08:23 PM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 09:25 PM)John Keith Wrote:  The 50g can be programmed in Saturn assembly, it even has the assembler built in.

I must have been living under a rock for all those years.
Somehow I had in mind that SysRPL is emulated but you could only write assembler code for the native processor.

So you're telling me that you can write assembler code for both, the native processor and the emulated Saturn processor?

Correct. The ASM command will assemble System RPL or Saturn assembly language depending on mode settings, or even both mixed together in a single object if the Saturn code is delimited with CODE and ENDCODE. Cool, huh?

[Thomas Klemm]

(01-10-2024 08:34 PM)Joe Horn Wrote:  Cool, huh?

Definitely. But then I assume Saturn assembler code is mostly used for existing code. Or why would you rather write Saturn assembler code than native assembler code? The latter is probably faster.

[John Keith]

ARM code is definitely faster, but interfacing between the bare ARM and the emulated Saturn is rather complicated and mostly undocumented. HPGCC allows you to write C programs that run natively on the 50g's ARM but the latest version requires a custom ROM.

[rprosperi]

(01-10-2024 08:28 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Hello!

(01-10-2024 03:10 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  They probably really would sell one (maybe even two) to everyone here,...

No, not to everyone here.

Regards
Max

Worry not Max! If this hypothetical machine does come out, I'll buy 4 to cover your 2 machines...

Eventually, if we live long enough, they will become rare and collectable, and I'll then sell them to you at the original price...

[Rolief_Rechner]

(01-10-2024 03:10 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(01-09-2024 09:47 PM)Rolief_Rechner Wrote:  ...
Let's use the oldest incentive on earth - money. For example, an engineer friend in adjacent office thought nothing of paying some $700 US last year for a NIP 48GX. He's not even using it yet. Hoping to keep the old unit going for whatever time left. But - now he has a spare. If HP were to do a remake of the 48 with improvements they'd sell every unit for whatever price they put on it.

They probably really would sell one (maybe even two) to everyone here, but that's sadly still not enough. The problem is, even when counting ALL of us, it's not a significant enough market to make an investment large enough to make an improved 48GX.

You realize the same argument could have been made for not producing the 15CE? Can you hear the marketing types? - 'Who on earth would want a 40-year old machine with a strange design, and a backwards calculation system? Only those old timers in the newsgroup.'

[rprosperi]

(01-12-2024 01:50 AM)Rolief_Rechner Wrote:  

(01-10-2024 03:10 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  They probably really would sell one (maybe even two) to everyone here, but that's sadly still not enough. The problem is, even when counting ALL of us, it's not a significant enough market to make an investment large enough to make an improved 48GX.

You realize the same argument could have been made for not producing the 15CE? Can you hear the marketing types? - 'Who on earth would want a 40-year old machine with a strange design, and a backwards calculation system? Only those old timers in the newsgroup.'

Actually no, not the same situation at all, for many reasons:

The 15C already had proof that a re-issue will sell out quickly: the 15C LE !

The 15C had many more years to gather fans, and it's RPN (vs. RPL) so in demand by a much larger audience.

Finally, in the case of the 15c CE, Moravia could repurpose 12C hardware since it's still in production.

For a new kind of 48GX++, with enhancements, it would mean developing the h/w from scratch and basically redeveloping the ROM, nearly from scratch. So, orders of magnitude more investment would be needed, and I don't believe anyone could justify such. Just my opinion though...