Does the HP 12c Platinum use mask ROM?

[Idnarn]

Who doesn't want their calculators to last forever, but from reading online, it appears that use of flash ROM in recent calculators could limit their life to about 10-20 years compared to models from the last century. Does the HP 12c Platinum use mask ROM? It doesn't appear to be "flashable" but that doesn't imply it doesn't use flash EEPROM inside.

[AnnoyedOne]

(09-25-2024 04:04 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  Does the HP 12c Platinum use mask ROM?

Yes.

A1

PS: I've looked at the SoC datasheet.

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid191542

PPS: Flash ROM isn't the same as EEPROM.

[Idnarn]

(09-25-2024 04:14 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Yes.

A1

PS: I've looked at the SoC datasheet.

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid191542

Thank you. I also looked up the datasheet for the processor in the HP 12C newer edition (not Platinum) and perhaps the HP 15C CE also, which is apparently Atmel ATSAM4LC2CA per Wikipedia. The datasheet claims 15 years for the flash's data retention.

For a different processor Atmel ATmega32A / 328 such as used in the Paxer Voyager 15C clone, its datasheet claims 20 years at 85°C/100 years at 25°C and apparently that too at "much less than 1 PPM". It appears flash lifetime may mean different things depending on the chip.

[AnnoyedOne]

(09-25-2024 04:29 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  The datasheet claims 15 years for the flash's data retention.

I used EEPROM some 40yrs ago. As I recall 10,000 erase/program cycles was specified. My experience with them was that they were unreliable then.

[Pretty sure that it was an Intel 2816. This datasheet is for a 2816A dated October 1983

https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive...02816A.pdf]

A few year later I used a chip with the same spec. I ran a test (over many months) and each cell lasted 100,000+ erase/program cycles.

I've yet to see any flash-ROM fail.

PS: Many of these specs are both conservative and theoretical. In real-life lifetimes will likely be longer. Personally I'm not concerned (at all) about flash-ROM failures. The keyboard/display will probably go first. My 2c.

[brouhaha]

(09-25-2024 04:04 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  Who doesn't want their calculators to last forever, but from reading online, it appears that use of flash ROM in recent calculators could limit their life to about 10-20 years compared to models from the last century. Does the HP 12c Platinum use mask ROM? It doesn't appear to be "flashable" but that doesn't imply it doesn't use flash EEPROM inside.

Historically it did. I think the masked-ROM microcontroller used in it either has gone or will soon go end-of-life, so it seems likely that HP has or will switch to making the 12c Platinum with the same Microchip ATSAM4LC2CA as the other current Voyager models. However, I don't speak for HP nor have any inside information from them, so take this with a grain of salt.

Some vendors specify a 10-20 year data retention for flash parts stored and operated at elevated temperature, e.g. 85C. At or near reasonable room temperature, those should last much longer. The datasheet for the ATSAM4L says minimum 15 years but does not specify for what temperature or range that applies, so unforutnately we have to assume that it is over the full operating temperature range of the part, -40C to +85C, or possibly even the storage range, -60C to +150C.

For comparison, a different Microchip microcontroller, PIC16F13145, built on a different process node with different memory cells, is specified for typical retention of 40 years, "Provided no other specifications are violated", i.e., its specified operating temperature range of -40C to +125C, and storage range of -65C to +150C. For that part, no minimum retention period is given.

Note that very nearly ALL consumer electronics now contains floating-gate memory cells that have this issue. When the flash memory in your car's ECU loses its bits, your car isn't going to run.

[AnnoyedOne]

The OP seems to want to buy a HP model "that will last forever" (or more accurately their lifetime). Personally I'd pick a model based on features, size, price and other factors and not worry about lifetime (unless it is known to be limited).

(09-26-2024 07:03 AM)brouhaha Wrote:  I think the masked-ROM microcontroller used in it either has gone or will soon go end-of-life...

You could be right. That part was designed at least 20 years ago. And ARM Soc's are coming down in price, are much faster, etc.

I have noticed that new 12C/12CP calculators seem to be NOS (new old stock) possibly made years ago. So HP may've stockpiled them in anticipation. Or perhaps they negotiated some deal to keep buying the chip. Who knows?

(09-26-2024 07:03 AM)brouhaha Wrote:  Note that very nearly ALL consumer electronics now contains floating-gate memory cells that have this issue.

Exactly. Everything eventually dies. Humans, animals, plants, electronics, etc. Then there's "change". Will we even require calculators/computers in 20 years?

A1

[Idnarn]

(09-26-2024 12:43 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  The OP seems to want to buy a HP model "that will last forever" (or more accurately their lifetime). Personally I'd pick a model based on features, size, price and other factors and not worry about lifetime (unless it is known to be limited).

After reading both of your comments, I'll take your advice and get what I would like using, which is not a 12C Platinum. The reason why I mentioned this model is that it is not flashable implying perhaps mask ROM may have been used. I want something that will last into my old age because it can be bought once and need not be upgraded with new technology. Even a 1980s scientific calculator will serve me fine. As I get older, adapting to different interfaces (new UI or new language/APIs) becomes a burden or irritating.

(09-26-2024 12:43 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Exactly. Everything eventually dies. Humans, animals, plants, electronics, etc. Then there's "change". Will we even require calculators/computers in 20 years?

If you mean "we" as in humanity, I don't know. For a person like me, as long as I'm alive I'll want a scientific calculator (the 12C platinum is not a scientific calculator) and also a computer with a POSIX programming environment with emacs, gcc, the libc, gdb, etc. due to interfaces that I'm familiar with (muscle memory, intuitive usage of the environment), just like I would want paper and pencils. Even if there were a robot sitting in front of me capable of everything, I am human and will want to use my old familiar things I learned.

You're right that everything dies eventually, and everything changes. The world is changing very quickly.

If the question were put as "Will we be able to use calculators/computers in 20 years?", I don't know how to answer that too.

I own several HP 15Cs, 12C platinums, Casio scientific and 12 digit business models and I'm quite happy with them. I'd like them to last into my old age. Perhaps some of them will.

[AnnoyedOne]

Quote:As I get older, adapting to different interfaces (new UI or new language/APIs) becomes a burden or irritating.

Agreed. I have a small collection of stuff (not just calculators) obtained over many years. Newer stuff doesn't interest me much. The last time I checked it all still worked.

I'm under no illusions that any of it is of any interest to others. When I go it'll likely be "junk" and will be thrown out. Or sold (to someone that appreciates it).

Quote:Even a 1980s scientific calculator will serve me fine.

And mine still do.

Quote:If you mean "we" as in humanity, I don't know.

That was my meaning, yes.

I wouldn't be surprised if AI usage becomes the norm. I won't use it anyway.

"What is sin(12.34) Alexa?"

A1

[vaklaff]

(09-26-2024 02:54 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  If you mean "we" as in humanity, I don't know. For a person like me, as long as I'm alive I'll want a scientific calculator (the 12C platinum is not a scientific calculator) and also a computer with a POSIX programming environment with emacs, gcc, the libc, gdb, etc. due to interfaces that I'm familiar with (muscle memory, intuitive usage of the environment), just like I would want paper and pencils. Even if there were a robot sitting in front of me capable of everything, I am human and will want to use my old familiar things I learned.

Emacs???
;-)

[Idnarn]

(09-26-2024 05:21 PM)vaklaff Wrote:  Emacs???
;-)

The good thing about this world is that you have what you like and I have what I like.