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brouhaha · 09-18-2014, 08:00 AM

(09-11-2014 07:29 AM)x34 Wrote:
(09-11-2014 06:15 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote: The DMs are based on HP-firmware, and the MKs evolved from the MK-52 design. They certainly weren't designed 'from scratch'.

DM-15C uses sufficiently reworked firmware, and internal structure (CPU, display, etc) is far from HP-15C.

The DM-15C's actual calculator firmware is only slightly reworked from the original HP firmware, and is simulating the HP proprietary Nut processor architecture as used in the original 15C. The only substantial new part is that simulation code, which itself was largely inspired by other published HP simulators. As a calculator, it's very far removed from "designed from scratch". I claim to be qualified to state this as a person who's done a LOT of reverse-engineering of HP calculators including the 15C, developed some of the 15C firmware mods for larger memory support, and authored the first open-source microcode-level simulators for many HP calculator models including the 15C. I'm not in any way trying to disparage the DM-15C or it's developer(s), but claiming that it is anywhere close to "designed from scratch" is very misleading.

The calculator prototypes Richard Ottosen and I have made are also not (yet) running any "designed from scratch" firrmware. Most have simulated HP calculator, with standard or modified microocode, and recent ones have run Thomas Okken's open source Free42. Richard and I are quite excited about the possibilities of "designed from scratch" calculator firmware on our hardware.

walter b · 09-18-2014, 10:28 AM

(09-18-2014 08:00 AM)brouhaha Wrote: The calculator prototypes Richard Ottosen and I have made are also not (yet) running any "designed from scratch" firrmware. ... Richard and I are quite excited about the possibilities of "designed from scratch" calculator firmware on our hardware.

And I know a few people who are quite excited about the possibilities your calculator prototypes will be offering when they'll be available.

d:-)

Jake Schwartz · 09-23-2014, 06:49 PM

"Scaled Reptiles" live! Eric Smith gave us an update at HHC2014 and we continue to be hopeful that there will be a positive outcome. Hopefully "Mr. Brouhaha" will provide his own details.

Jake

Ángel Martin · 09-24-2014, 05:56 AM

(09-23-2014 06:49 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote: "Scaled Reptiles" live! Eric Smith gave us an update at HHC2014 and we continue to be hopeful that there will be a positive outcome. Hopefully "Mr. Brouhaha" will provide his own details.

Any URL links to the presentations available yet?

Thanks!

Didier Lachieze · 09-25-2014, 10:44 AM

(09-24-2014 05:56 AM)Ángel Martin Wrote:
(09-23-2014 06:49 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote: "Scaled Reptiles" live! Eric Smith gave us an update at HHC2014 and we continue to be hopeful that there will be a positive outcome. Hopefully "Mr. Brouhaha" will provide his own details.

Any URL links to the presentations available yet?

Thanks!

HHC 2014: Scaled Reptiles from (Silicon) Laboratories

jebem · 09-25-2014, 01:29 PM

(09-25-2014 10:44 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote: HHC 2014: Scaled Reptiles from (Silicon) Laboratories

Nice!
But at 300USD a piece of hardware alone (projected price for a production batch of at least 100 units), there must be a strong reason to spend that amount of money on a calculator.

The goods news is that the business model for firmware will be open source only, from several different sources. Which ones we don't know yet.

Thomas Radtke · 09-25-2014, 09:38 PM

(09-25-2014 01:29 PM)jebem Wrote: But at 300USD a piece of hardware alone (projected price for a production batch of at least 100 units)[...]

I expected more than that. Very nice :-).

XC-42 = extensible calculator that is the answer to everything? ;-)

walter b · 09-26-2014, 10:03 PM

(09-25-2014 01:29 PM)jebem Wrote: But at 300USD a piece of hardware alone (projected price for a production batch of at least 100 units), there must be a strong reason to spend that amount of money on a calculator.

As usual, there's a constant and a batch-size dependent part of the costs. Seems the constant part is dominant here since Eric talks about 3D printing the calculator cases. Sounds like other technologies don't pay off unless batch size would be some (several) thousands. Too bad we can't abuse existing mechanical hardware.

d:-/

walter b · 09-27-2014, 09:03 AM

Just crossed my mind this morning: Could deep-drawing be a solution for the case? One foil for the calculator top (i.e. keyplate & surrounding), another one for its bottom incl. the battery cave. It won't be as solid as a tank but far better than folded mylar; and I expect it far less expensive than 3D prints. Battery door must be added. A rectangular piece of gorilla glass over the LCD. Keys will need another technology. Any experience here?

d:-)

walter b · 09-27-2014, 09:51 AM

Way back in 2005, there was another hobbyist's project I still found some industrial design drawings of in my old files. Maybe food for thoughts.

d:-)

aurelio · 09-27-2014, 09:57 AM

(09-27-2014 09:51 AM)walter b Wrote: Way back in 2005, there was another hobbyist's project I still found some industrial design drawings of in my old files. Maybe food for thoughts.

d:-)

Hi Walter, I need the "ENTER" key for repairing my 41C....may you print it in 3D? Smile

walter b · 09-27-2014, 10:04 AM

(09-27-2014 09:57 AM)aurelio Wrote:
(09-27-2014 09:51 AM)walter b Wrote: Way back in 2005, there was another hobbyist's project I still found some industrial design drawings of in my old files. Maybe food for thoughts.

Hi Walter, I need the "ENTER" key for repairing my 41C....may you print it in 3D?

Heh, heh, Aurelio, that was the project of another hobbyist (ambiguity of the English language Wink

). I've got nothing more than these jpgs.

d:-)

Massimo Gnerucci · 09-27-2014, 01:16 PM

(09-27-2014 09:57 AM)aurelio Wrote:
(09-27-2014 09:51 AM)walter b Wrote: Way back in 2005, there was another hobbyist's project I still found some industrial design drawings of in my old files. Maybe food for thoughts.

d:-)

Hi Walter, I need the "ENTER" key for repairing my 41C....may you print it in 3D?

That ENTER key, for a landscape format, is vertical: unsuitable for the 41C. Wink

anetzer · (This post was last modified: 09-27-2014 03:48 PM by anetzer.)

(09-25-2014 01:29 PM)jebem Wrote: at 300USD a piece of hardware alone (projected price for a production batch of at least 100 units),

Just a question: Like with the PIL-Box, couldn't you sell a base version (Motherboard with display, possibly in a mylar casing) and do an optional version with 3D printed casing?

I could imagine doing the 3D-fiddling locally. Especially since it would allow me to customise the case. There's always people who would be willing to do some of the work themselves...

Would this possibly allow for lower prices overall?

Thx,

a.n.

aurelio · (This post was last modified: 09-27-2014 04:59 PM by aurelio.)

(09-27-2014 01:16 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:
(09-27-2014 09:57 AM)aurelio Wrote: Hi Walter, I need the "ENTER" key for repairing my 41C....may you print it in 3D?

That ENTER key, for a landscape format, is vertical: unsuitable for the 41C.

I could use it anyway, when repaired, just turning PI/2 tha calculator each "ENTER" Smile

d b · 09-27-2014, 05:15 PM

(09-27-2014 03:47 PM)anetzer Wrote:
(09-25-2014 01:29 PM)jebem Wrote: at 300USD a piece of hardware alone (projected price for a production batch of at least 100 units),

Just a question: Like with the PIL-Box, couldn't you sell a base version (Motherboard with display, possibly in a mylar casing) and do an optional version with 3D printed casing?

I could imagine doing the 3D-fiddling locally. Especially since it would allow me to customise the case. There's always people who would be willing to do some of the work themselves...

Would this possibly allow for lower prices overall?

Thx,

a.n.

Eric did a "show of hands" market analysis on just that at the HHC last weekend with several options, interfaces, and price points. I think he's looking for the biggest popular bang for the buck but not sure if he will be able to split up the run into many parts. It sounded like the case needs to be in the 100 range to get the price per unit down and he's not sure he can sell more than that. He and Richard are doing this as a labor of love but they do have to break even on this. The Mylar sleeve design looked to be fine for long use but couldn't take much abuse. To paraphrase; a 43 is safe on a desk, but that's not what 43s are made for.

sa-penguin · 09-28-2014, 01:12 AM

Back in 1982, I bought my first HP: a 41C, osting $300 Australian. So a $300 price tag today isn't so scary.

What I would suggest, however, Is to think of this as a "Development Board" - maybe even have Si Labs offer it on their pages as such. Why? Well, most Dev Boards don't include a case (think Pi, beaglebone, arduino). The pretty / functional case becomes an after-market issue.

Dev boards are typically expandable, so Si Labs may wish to modify the design. The thing is, you're offering them a working platform to advertise their product, with minimal engineering expense required of them. Considering the poor functionality of what passes for Dev Boards from some companies, this is a gold mine.

anetzer · (This post was last modified: 09-28-2014 03:27 PM by anetzer.)

(09-28-2014 01:12 AM)sa-penguin Wrote: What I would suggest, however, Is to think of this as a "Development Board"

Well, I thought along that line in my previous post too: If the 43S became available as a board in a mylar sleeve, I'd take at least one.

I'm sure, I wouldn't be the only one and many of us would start to think about cases. So, yes, an aftermarket model for a case might appear at some time. Especially since 3D-printers would allow to share, refine and enhance case designs and could be printed in different places, well, almost everywhere. (In fact I'm quite sure: 3D printers will spread, improve and get cheaper!)

Every one of us wants an HP-quality keyboard. But this could be developed and optimized by more and different people then, sharing the work...

All this should not hinder the developers of the 43S to offer their calculator with a casing of good quality, but they should consider selling a board-only or mylar option. Just to raise the number of boards distributed out there, just to bolster the critical mass of this awe-inspiring project!

a.

d b · 09-28-2014, 05:23 PM

(09-28-2014 03:24 PM)anetzer Wrote:
(09-28-2014 01:12 AM)sa-penguin Wrote: What I would suggest, however, Is to think of this as a "Development Board"

Well, I thought along that line in my previous post too: If the 43S became available as a board in a mylar sleeve, I'd take at least one.

I'm sure, I wouldn't be the only one and many of us would start to think about cases. So, yes, an aftermarket model for a case might appear at some time. Especially since 3D-printers would allow to share, refine and enhance case designs and could be printed in different places, well, almost everywhere. (In fact I'm quite sure: 3D printers will spread, improve and get cheaper!)

Every one of us wants an HP-quality keyboard. But this could be developed and optimized by more and different people then, sharing the work...

All this should not hinder the developers of the 43S to offer their calculator with a casing of good quality, but they should consider selling a board-only or mylar option. Just to raise the number of boards distributed out there, just to bolster the critical mass of this awe-inspiring project!

a.

Anetxr; Good idea. Case to come later, when the total number is known and the price per unit is lower.

Eric; I change my vote.

walter b · (This post was last modified: 09-28-2014 07:32 PM by walter b.)

(09-28-2014 05:23 PM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote: Anetxr; Good idea. Case to come later, when the total number is known and the price per unit is lower.

Eric; I change my vote.

I think the case deserves some more thoughts. So postponing the final case will help the project. It will fly better with a firmware taking advantage of the large LCD - a firmware it doesn't have yet.

d:-)

BTW, charming idea to redefine punctuation and change names. As long as it reads "RE: 43 status" I'd suggest staying with colons and anetzer, however, for sake of politeness. Way back in ancient Greek, the semicolon was employed as a question mark - but you use it differently.