43s status

[walter b]

(12-27-2014 02:37 PM)Marcus von Cube Wrote:  Not a bad one! If I only had time to bring it to life...

Thanks. There should be uniform step sizes in both directions on the keyboard. I can tell you the suggested menu contents as soon as you want/need them.

d:-)

[anetzer]

(12-26-2014 06:54 PM)walter b Wrote:  Just food for thought.

I'd prefer it more 41'ish, cause that's what it reminds me most of.

One question however regarding the Alpha character placement in the bottom row:

? Y , Z

One can easily see the reasons for that decision. It still calls for refinig, don't you agree?


My best wishes for 2015 to all of you!


a.n.

[walter b]

(12-27-2014 07:03 PM)anetzer Wrote:  I'd prefer it more 41'ish, cause that's what it reminds me most of.

I don't quite get the meaning of that sentence. Could you elaborate? What do you want/suggest?

Quote:One question however regarding the Alpha character placement in the bottom row:

? Y , Z

One can easily see the reasons for that decision. It still calls for refinig, don't you agree?

If you see the reasons already - what is your alternative suggestion?

d:-?

[d b]

(12-27-2014 07:03 PM)anetzer Wrote:  

(12-26-2014 06:54 PM)walter b Wrote:  Just food for thought.

I'd prefer it more 41'ish, cause that's what it reminds me most of.
One question however regarding the Alpha character placement in the bottom row:
? Y , Z
One can easily see the reasons for that decision. It still calls for refining, don't you agree?
My best wishes for 2015 to all of you!
a.n.

A.N.-
I'm sure there'll be a lot of that refining before the faceplate gets printed. Whatever happens; the final product won't please everyone, but most function placements that individuals don't like will be able to be modified in the user keyboard(s). I guess all will be modifiable really but no one wants a stick-on label on an often used key top, or not too many anyway So that's great. The only bad thing there is that we'll need a label kit from Eric Rechlin like our 41s came with (except that Eric's stick better).

We all have preferences and while I go with you in the 41 direction, I think the developers are going in a more 42ish cast, and that's fine too. One thing they might get flack for is the screen size and coloration (or lack of). The one they use will be the best of possible worlds in size/power consumption/cost/availability, it may be too big for some who only need 3 or four lines and want more keys or a smaller footprint. It may be too small for those that want an RPN ipad.

I think you and me will be glad to just get one.

[anetzer]

(12-27-2014 08:45 PM)walter b Wrote:  

(12-27-2014 07:03 PM)anetzer Wrote:  more 41'ish.

Could you elaborate?

Not much to it: I could never really appreciate the 20B (or 30B) casing. In the emulator it looks even worse, cause the shiny black part really can be seen as a hollow recess or as a bombed form protruding from an otherwise rather flat design (believe me, for those who first saw the emulator, before holding a 20B in their hands, this can be rather vexing...).

I just wanted to suggest that you might choose a 41 or 42 skin. They are much more forgiving to two-dimensional representation...

(12-27-2014 08:45 PM)walter b Wrote:  

(12-27-2014 07:03 PM)anetzer Wrote:   ? Y , Z

what is your alternative suggestion?

Well, obviously anything where Y is actually followed by Z.
I do see that P.FCN right where it aught to be.
So the only obvious solution would be to split TESTS from ?. ? might go with FLAGS as well, but it goes without saying that , is already reserved for that key, right where it must be.

Without very much contemplation I could imagine moving TESTS to the STO key and putting ASSIGN under the +. Then the ALPHA - assignments in the bottom row could run "Y Z , ?".

I don't say this is mandatory, but the association of the question mark to the TESTS menu is not equally binding and self-enforcing as the order of letters in the alphabet, don't you agree? The first is a question of design ideas, the second is a cultural convention far above the members of this forum.

BTW: I love the keyboard to screen ratio in the 43S! Feels, ah, handy...

Thank you for sharing,

a.

[walter b]

(12-28-2014 09:47 AM)anetzer Wrote:  I just wanted to suggest that you might choose a 41 or 42 skin. They are much more forgiving to two-dimensional representation...

Can be done. I was just a bit too lazy in my pixel work.

(12-28-2014 09:47 AM)anetzer Wrote:  I do see that P.FCN right where it aught to be.
So the only obvious solution would be to split TESTS from ?. ? might go with FLAGS as well, but it goes without saying that , is already reserved for that key, right where it must be.

Without very much contemplation I could imagine moving TESTS to the STO key and putting ASSIGN under the +. Then the ALPHA - assignments in the bottom row could run "Y Z , ?".

Nice try BUT Y on + isn't a good location since you have STO and RCL arithmetic. Can you do better?

(12-28-2014 09:47 AM)anetzer Wrote:  BTW: I love the keyboard to screen ratio in the 43S! Feels, ah, handy...

Thank you.

d:-)

[Paul Dale]

Why are the arithmetic operations not on the edge?

I can understanding wanting to locate them with the navigation keys but it seems somewhat unnatural to me.

Still, I like the layout overall.


- Pauli

[walter b]

(12-28-2014 11:26 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  Why are the arithmetic operations not on the edge?

Well, you remember the polls. The majority wanted those operators on the left side below ENTER where they were until the HP-41C. So XEQ would go to the right - right under DEL (i.e. <-). Looking at this I didn't like it too much - thus I moved that column of four keys to the left edge (putting XEQ next to ENTER), keeping the arithmetic operators left of the digits below ENTER.

d:-)

P.S.: Alternatively, when putting XEQ to the right, I can swap [f] and DEL to put some distance between XEQ and DEL. Then DEL would leave its standard location ...

[anetzer]

(12-28-2014 11:15 AM)walter b Wrote:  Can you do better?

If suggestions are welcome, it would be handy to have a sort of template in a popular file format on which one can move things around a bit.

I think I saw such a file once here in the forum? Can anyone help out?

a.

[walter b]

(12-28-2014 06:12 PM)anetzer Wrote:  If suggestions are welcome, it would be handy to have a sort of template in a popular file format on which one can move things around a bit.

Is MS Word popular enough? If true, you can get such a file containing a keyboard table (or call it a matrix if you prefer). Though also quadrille paper and a pencil do IMHO.

d:-)

[walter b]

OK, for the new year I modified it a bit:

• The style follows the HP-42S now.
• Put the menus from f-shifted back onto g-shifted labels.
• Moved the letters slightly to take care of Y.
• Moved some f- and g-shifted labels for better matching.
  

Enjoy (and comment if you like to).

d:-)

[Sylvain Cote]

(01-01-2015 10:16 AM)walter b Wrote:  Enjoy (and comment if you like to).

Thanks Walter,

I like this one better than the previous one.
IMHO going slowly from darker to brighter color helps readability.
On the previous one, the yellow was overshadoing the blue and the white labels.
Should the stripes around the LCD be swapped to follow the new label colors ?

Sylvain

[Bit]

(01-01-2015 10:16 AM)walter b Wrote:  OK, for the new year I modified it a bit:

• The style follows the HP-42S now.
• Put the menus from f-shifted back onto g-shifted labels.
• Moved the letters slightly to take care of Y.
• Moved some f- and g-shifted labels for better matching.
  

Enjoy (and comment if you like to).

d:-)

Not bad in my opinion. I think it'd make sense to name and label the menu keys (M1-6 perhaps?) so they can be more easily referred to.

[walter b]

(01-01-2015 04:47 PM)Bit Wrote:  Not bad in my opinion.

Thanks. You didn't grow up in the USA, do you?

(01-01-2015 04:47 PM)Bit Wrote:  I think it'd make sense to name and label the menu keys (M1-6 perhaps?) so they can be more easily referred to.

I'd suggest returning to F1-6 then.

d:-)

[walter b]

(01-01-2015 02:15 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  I like this one better than the previous one.

Merci.

(01-01-2015 02:15 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:  Should the stripes around the LCD be swapped to follow the new label colors ?

In principle, you're right (remember Radio Jerevan).

As it is planned now, the bottom row in the LCD takes the unshifted menu assignments, the next one the f-shifted ones, and the top one the g-shifted ones if applicable. Each menu starts with the bottom row and grows towards the lowest numeric row on screen. For a menu containing less than 18 items, there will be empty space beween the menu section and the numeric section.

If we'd revert that, the unshifted assignments would go to the top row of the menu section, the f- and g-shifted ones would follow top down if applicable. For a menu containing less than 18 items, there would be empty space beween the menu keys and their labels on screen, while each menu would start immediately below the lowest numeric row.

I like the first order better.

d:-)

[Bit]

(01-01-2015 05:39 PM)walter b Wrote:  

(01-01-2015 04:47 PM)Bit Wrote:  Not bad in my opinion.

Thanks. You didn't grow up in the USA, do you?

I spent very little time in the USA in my youth. When I say (or write) "not bad", it's usually a compliment. I make an effort to adjust my communication patterns in American environments, but this being effectively an international forum, I take the liberty of simply saying exactly what I mean. I would've been surprised if someone from Germany had misunderstood me and I'm glad you didn't.

(01-01-2015 05:39 PM)walter b Wrote:  

(01-01-2015 04:47 PM)Bit Wrote:  I think it'd make sense to name and label the menu keys (M1-6 perhaps?) so they can be more easily referred to.

I'd suggest returning to F1-6 then.

d:-)

F1-6 sounds good to me. I don't think the specific choice of names matters a lot, the important thing is that there should be some consistent, unambiguous and obvious way of referring to them.

[brouhaha]

(01-01-2015 04:47 PM)Bit Wrote:  I think it'd make sense to name and label the menu keys (M1-6 perhaps?) so they can be more easily referred to.

There's an existing calculator documentation convention (since 1986) that the soft menu keys are referred to by the name of the function they perform at the time, typographically represented as an image of the the dot-matrix legend as it appears on the display.

I have a strong preference for NOT having any legends on those keys. IMO, such legends don't add anything but clutter and confusion. The actual position of the key isn't helpful in documentation, as that can shift from one firmware version to another, or when certain programs are loaded. Also referring to a menu function by name rather than e.g. F4 is better because F4 won't do the right thing unless you're at the right menu. The documentation can give a sequence like "TRIG g ACOSH" (with ACOSH shown as a soft menu item), and that is much more useful than stating it as "TRIG g F4".

[brouhaha]

(01-01-2015 06:12 PM)walter b Wrote:  As it is planned now, the bottom row in the LCD takes the unshifted menu assignments, the next one the f-shifted ones, and the top one the g-shifted ones if applicable. Each menu starts with the bottom row and grows towards the lowest numeric row on screen. For a menu containing less than 18 items, there will be empty space beween the menu section and the numeric section.

If we'd revert that, the unshifted assignments would go to the top row of the menu section, the f- and g-shifted ones would follow top down if applicable. For a menu containing less than 18 items, there would be empty space beween the menu keys and their labels on screen, while each menu would start immediately below the lowest numeric row.

I like the first order better.

We could build the hardware with the LCD on the other side of the keyboard to solve that problem.

[walter b]

(01-01-2015 07:42 PM)brouhaha Wrote:  We could build the hardware with the LCD on the other side of the keyboard to solve that problem.

If that would accelerate prototype completion and delivery I'd even accept that (for the prototypes).

d;-D

[Gene]

(12-28-2014 11:47 AM)walter b Wrote:  

(12-28-2014 11:26 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  Why are the arithmetic operations not on the edge?

Well, you remember the polls. The majority wanted those operators on the left side below ENTER where they were until the HP-41C.

Gene: I also ask the question Paul did. The operators in the 2nd column looks most un-natural to me. IMO, they should be on the right ala HP 41 style if you have the column of keys on the left ala HP 42S style as shown.

And this is a very strong dislike. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is my favorite and 10 is a TI-1200, this is a 9. Ugh, again IMO. :-)