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Han · 02-25-2015, 10:17 PM

My first HP was an HP48 so forgive me if this is common knowledge. Were the docs for the 71B ever in printed form? Or were they provided on diskettes? I'm just curious there were ever hardcopies (in the form of a book/manual).

Paul Berger (Canada) · 02-25-2015, 10:21 PM

There where printed manuals, two for the base system and a third one for HP-IL.

Dave Frederickson · (This post was last modified: 02-25-2015 11:05 PM by Dave Frederickson.)

Adam has a 71B with manuals on eBay. Scans of the manuals are available on hpmuseum.net.

**rprosperi** · 02-26-2015, 01:26 AM

(02-25-2015 10:17 PM)Han Wrote: My first HP was an HP48 so forgive me if this is common knowledge. Were the docs for the 71B ever in printed form? Or were they provided on diskettes? I'm just curious there were ever hardcopies (in the form of a book/manual).

If you were asking about the IDS Volumes (internals, OS info, APIs, etc.) those manuals were sold only in hard copy, no electronic copies were ever sold, though they were rumored to be circulating among certain limited channels.

Han · 02-26-2015, 01:30 AM

(02-26-2015 01:26 AM)rprosperi Wrote:
(02-25-2015 10:17 PM)Han Wrote: My first HP was an HP48 so forgive me if this is common knowledge. Were the docs for the 71B ever in printed form? Or were they provided on diskettes? I'm just curious there were ever hardcopies (in the form of a book/manual).

If you were asking about the IDS Volumes (internals, OS info, APIs, etc.) those manuals were sold only in hard copy, no electronic copies were ever sold, though they were rumored to be circulating among certain limited channels.

Yes, this was what I was asking about (but didn't realize that was what I wanted to know :-). Nevertheless, thank you all who responded.

cruff · 02-26-2015, 03:28 AM

(02-26-2015 01:30 AM)Han Wrote: If you were asking about the IDS Volumes (internals, OS info, APIs, etc.) those manuals were sold only in hard copy, no electronic copies were ever sold, though they were rumored to be circulating among certain limited channels.

The IDS manuals are on the MoHPC USB disk.

J-F Garnier · 02-26-2015, 07:29 PM

(02-26-2015 01:26 AM)rprosperi Wrote: If you were asking about the IDS Volumes (internals, OS info, APIs, etc.) those manuals were sold only in hard copy, no electronic copies were ever sold, though they were rumored to be circulating among certain limited channels.

I'm still looking for the IDS of HP-71B 2CCCC version. It existed, but I don't know anybody who had it.

J-F

Valentin Albillo · 02-26-2015, 08:23 PM

(02-26-2015 07:29 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote:
(02-26-2015 01:26 AM)rprosperi Wrote: If you were asking about the IDS Volumes (internals, OS info, APIs, etc.) those manuals were sold only in hard copy, no electronic copies were ever sold, though they were rumored to be circulating among certain limited channels.

I'm still looking for the IDS of HP-71B 2CCCC version. It existed, but I don't know anybody who had it.

I would give an arm and a leg (i.e.: good money) for the HP-71B Math ROM IDS but I don't know if it's ever been published or even if it actually exists anymore.

A long time ago I asked in the old MoHP if anyone knew how to parse any MAT keywords or manipulate matrix elements in assembler and got no useful replies, the Math ROM IDS would completely answer those questions and many more (funny functions, anyone ?).

Regards.
V.

**rprosperi** · 02-26-2015, 08:37 PM

(02-26-2015 08:23 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:
(02-26-2015 07:29 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote: I'm still looking for the IDS of HP-71B 2CCCC version. It existed, but I don't know anybody who had it.

I would give an arm and a leg (i.e.: good money) for the HP-71B Math ROM IDS but I don't know if it's ever been published or even if it actually exists anymore.

A long time ago I asked in the old MoHP if anyone knew how to parse any MAT keywords or manipulate matrix elements in assembler and got no useful replies, the Math ROM IDS would completely answer those questions and many more (funny functions, anyone ?).

Regards.
V.

I don't recall this ever being published; I don't believe any of the Application ROMs had an IDS available, except for the Forth/Assembler of course. Even the 41 Translator didn't rate an IDS IIRC.

Still, agree it would be quite interesting since this formed the basis of virtually all the Pioneer and 48/49/50 core math libraries.

I will email a couple of offline old friends...

Han · 02-27-2015, 01:00 AM

Are there rom readers that can be used to dump the rom image? I'm sure we could crowd source the disassembly and come with a community IDS for it.

Dave Frederickson · (This post was last modified: 02-27-2015 01:50 AM by Dave Frederickson.)

(02-27-2015 01:00 AM)Han Wrote: Are there rom readers that can be used to dump the rom image?

We have dumps of all the HP ROMs for the 71B. These can be loaded into Emu71 (Win and DOS) and FRAM71.

Perhaps if we knew exactly what it is you're looking for we could give you a direct answer rather than beating around the bush.

Han · 02-27-2015, 02:17 AM

(02-27-2015 01:08 AM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:
(02-27-2015 01:00 AM)Han Wrote: Are there rom readers that can be used to dump the rom image?

We have dumps of all the HP ROMs for the 71B. These can be loaded into Emu71 (Win and DOS) and FRAM71.

Perhaps if we knew exactly what it is you're looking for we could give you a direct answer rather than beating around the bush.

Oh, my question was answered already in the thread (regarding official hardcopy prints of the internal documentation -- wanted to have them just to add to my collection but they apparently only exist in electronic form, which I have now). My more recent post was in response to someone else having interest in similar documents for the MATH ROM module.

Valentin Albillo · 02-28-2015, 04:03 PM

(02-27-2015 01:00 AM)Han Wrote: Are there rom readers that can be used to dump the rom image? I'm sure we could crowd source the disassembly and come with a community IDS for it.

The HP-71B Math ROM has been dumped for its use with several emulators/simulators, I have the dumped file itself.

In theory it could be disassembled, but without proper documentation it would be a gargantuan task to turn the resulting Saturn's assembler code into anything useful. Reverse-engineering the truly complex and highly-optimized algorithms of this particular 32K piece of code (50% of the size of the HP-71B ROMs themselves) would take lots of time to lots of skilled people and I don't think anyone would have that much time or interest for this ~30 year-old piece of code.

Still, I believe that its IDS must be lurking somewhere, perhaps in the hands of some former developers who contributed to the ROM. Their names are known and it would be great if someone could contact them and ask for it.

Thanks for your interest, Han, and regards.
V.

Dave Frederickson · 02-28-2015, 05:03 PM

(02-26-2015 08:23 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote: I would give an arm and a leg (i.e.: good money) for the HP-71B Math ROM IDS but I don't know if it's ever been published or even if it actually exists anymore.

The HP-71 Internal Design Specifications were published so that third-parties could develop products for the 71B. It's more likely that if anything was published for the Math Pac it was an Internal Maintenance Specification, like the FORTH IMS. It's a detail, but it might help in the search.

Dave

Han · (This post was last modified: 02-28-2015 07:35 PM by Han.)

I guess I was over-simplifying the process. There are so many decompilers available for disassembling Saturn-based ROMs, and all the stable entry points are documented. There really isn't anything "unknown" about the processor that I just assumed it would be pretty easy to disassemble the ROM, and with the help of the community looking over the assembly, eventually we would figure out the algorithms. Most of them are available with a quick google search. At least, that's been my experience with the HP48 series and the HP42S.

**rprosperi** · 02-28-2015, 07:56 PM

(02-28-2015 07:34 PM)Han Wrote: I guess I was over-simplifying the process. There are so many decompilers available for disassembling Saturn-based ROMs, and all the stable entry points are documented. There really isn't anything "unknown" about the processor that I just assumed it would be pretty easy to disassemble the ROM, and with the help of the community looking over the assembly, eventually we would figure out the algorithms. Most of them are available with a quick google search. At least, that's been my experience with the HP48 series and the HP42S.

Although there are Saturn decompilers, one key difference is there is no equivalent of the erable file with all the entry points in electronic format. They are indeed in the IDS, but that is paper or PDF only. There was a PC-based (perhaps only unix?) tool suite for the 71B from the PPC group in France. Perhaps JFG knows if this is still around somewhere?

I doubt if the Forth/Assembler ROM (even with the Debugger LEX files) would be very useful for reverse-engineering the Math ROM; JFG and Christoph would know best.

Didier Lachieze · (This post was last modified: 02-28-2015 08:15 PM by Didier Lachieze.)

I

(02-28-2015 07:56 PM)rprosperi Wrote: There was a PC-based (perhaps only unix?) tool suite for the 71B from the PPC group in France. Perhaps JFG knows if this is still around somewhere?

Are you referring to areuh?
If so the disk image is here.

Mark Hardman · (This post was last modified: 02-28-2015 11:24 PM by Mark Hardman.)

When TSA in Houston, TX (one of the few repair depots for HP calculators) closed its doors in the late 1990's, they sold off most of their inventory via the MoHPC. I purchased a few items: the HP-41C from the display in their front entry, a non-working HP-19C (repaired), etc.

When I arrived to pickup my purchases, the nice lady handling the liquidation said, "For $200 more, I'll throw in everything that has yet to sell." This amounted to five medium sized storage boxes. Among their contents were: three HP-71 Math Pacs, 41 Translator ROM, two Forth/Assembler ROMs, a slew of 4K modules and what seemed like 100 lbs (45 kg) of documentation. Included in the documentation were many HP-75 and HP-71 Internal Design Specifications.

I've rummaged around and compared what I have to what is available on the MoHPC Document Set (Version 8.0). The HP-75 and HP-71 IDSs are identical to what is on the flash drive (Feb. 1983 and Dec. 1983 respectively).

I did find that I have a copy of the release version of the HP-71B HP-IL Internal Design Specification. The two volumes on the MoHPC flash drive are dated Jan. 1984; the cover page of Volume II even states "Version 1.0 - Preliminary". The copies that I have are dated Mar. 1984 and are clearly labelled as final release. Volume I is 10 pages longer and Volume II is 44 pages longer than the versions on the flash drive.

Is anyone sufficiently interested in a scanned version of these two volumes? They are printed 2-up and 4-up. A quality scan will take some time and effort.

I can't locate 2 of the 5 boxes. I'm sure they are in my ~~private black hole~~ storage unit. I'll keep digging to see what else I can find.

ETC: Corrected "Mar. 1983" to "Mar. 1984".

cruff · 02-28-2015, 08:54 PM

(02-28-2015 08:35 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote: I did find that I have a copy of the release version of the HP-71B HP-IL Internal Design Specification. ...
Is anyone sufficiently interested in a scanned version of these two volumes?

Definitely. I can help with scanning if necessary, while I don't have an automatic sheet feeder, I can always scan pages manually, I have a high resolution flatbed scanner that will handle 8.5" wide paper.

Mark Hardman · 02-28-2015, 09:19 PM

(02-28-2015 08:54 PM)cruff Wrote: Definitely. I can help with scanning if necessary, while I don't have an automatic sheet feeder, I can always scan pages manually, I have a high resolution flatbed scanner that will handle 8.5" wide paper.

Thank you for offering. I'll take you up on the offer.

Let me finish rummaging through my storage unit. I might get lucky and find additional IDS/IMS volumes not on the MoHPC flash drive. We'll then know the size of the project and can divide up the scanning accordingly.