Prime lags after extensive processing

[Marcio]

Hello all,

Has anyone ever noticed the Prime lags at times? Specially after extensive processing?

The only way that I know of to bring the 'edge' back is to hard-reset with a metal pencil (or paper clip).

The same happens when I try to transfer files between the emulator, connkit and the actual hardware. It is if the calc were still processing something in the background.

You'll find below a pic or screenshot showing that the progress bar gets stuck while transferring files.

Hope it's not the hardware.

Thank you.

Marcio

[bobkrohn]

These are symptoms that I have been complaining about for months.
I'm "glad" that someone else is FINALLY confirming my experience.
I felt like the little child in the fable "The Emperor's New Clothes"

*Excessive slow down or complete stoppage during Prime <-> PC operations.
*Having to do a Restore several time in a row in order to get it to take effect.
*Excessive slow down or complete stoppage during program compiling.

Sometimes a pinhole reset will work, getting you back to "normal".
Sometimes a Backup/Restore cycle will work.
Lately, I'm doing a full Factory Reset with format of Prime C: drive, resetting the Firmware to old original, with the HP usbtools program. Then re-updating the firmware. I've now done that at least a dozen times in the last few weeks since learning how.

All sorts of other crazy symptoms can accompany these issues.
Corrupted or missing files. Failure to recognize program variables or other programs...

No, it's not YOU or something YOU are doing wrong.
There are fundamental deep flaws in the machine.
You will bang your head against the wall and loose sleep trying to "fix" it.
During the brief periods where the machine is working you are in love and so happy.
Just yesterday my Enter key lost it's mechanical "click" but still seems to work.
Now I am worried that the pinhole reset switch will also fail from overuse.
Good luck my friend.

[Tim Wessman]

You've most likely thrashed the RAM. Not from memory leaks - just from running long periods of time doing heavy things. Without detailed information or examples there is basically no way to try and identify what might be able to be improved.

[bobkrohn]

I didn't know you could "wear out" RAM.
I have had the machine for only three months.
It exhibited problems from the start.
Can you authorize a warranty replacement through HP?
Or how do I go about doing that?
I got it on Amazon, maybe I'll try there too.
If they question it can I quote you as saying it wore-out prematurely?

[DrD]

(03-13-2015 08:03 PM)bobkrohn Wrote:  I didn't know you could "wear out" RAM

can I quote you as saying it wore-out prematurely?

If your "exhibited problems" are in any way as accurate as (your quotation) of Tim's reference to possible memory corruption due to heavy usage, the problem may not be defective hardware ...

[Marcio]

Question:

Is the emulator supposed to be faster than the calculator? I do hope not because the emulator seems to be at least 4x faster here running the same code and even after a hard reset on the calculator.
Thanks

[Tim Wessman]

(03-13-2015 08:03 PM)bobkrohn Wrote:  I didn't know you could "wear out" RAM.

I said "thrash" not wear out. Basically, think of it as your computer's disk getting very fragmented and the storage has tons of small little empty holes, but not enough large ones. So when you ask it for something large the underlying operating system has to move stuff around (if possible) to make enough space to give you the memory. On full operating systems like windows, you having things like "virtual memory" where it can write out stuff to disk when not in use, and bring it back later. This is not usually ever done for systems with small memory/slow speed however as it just isn't really practical or sometimes even possible.

This is why rebooting makes it speed up again.

Basically, your programs from what I can gather are constantly making and creating many fairly large RAM objects. For example, recalling a note will make a complete copy of that note in a string object to be edited. Then when you store it back it makes another block of memory to store into the internal memory location, and then it will delete the first one.

Now if you've found some sort of a memory bug that messes up some internal data (which I suspect you have) - and that messed up information gets written to disk - it is entirely possible that things are getting saved in that messed up state and causing you problems later. That can cause all sort of unpredictable behavior.

[DrD]

I haven't had any problem with memory corruption with firmware 6975. Earlier rev's, especially with CAS calculus commands, did leave the system behaviour in some quirky states. Reset, or On + Symb, seemed to resolve the issues. The biggest problem was not being able to tell when a memory issue was affecting some commands.

[Tim Wessman]

(03-13-2015 08:41 PM)Marcio Wrote:  Question:

Is the emulator supposed to be faster than the calculator?

Thanks

Yes.

If you've found a way to make it otherwise I'd love to know.

[rprosperi]

(03-13-2015 08:33 PM)DrD Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 08:03 PM)bobkrohn Wrote:  I didn't know you could "wear out" RAM

can I quote you as saying it wore-out prematurely?

If your "exhibited problems" are in any way as accurate as (your quotation) of Tim's reference to possible memory corruption due to heavy usage, the problem may not be defective hardware ...

LOL

I'm sorry, that's all I can say.

[bobkrohn]

(03-13-2015 08:44 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  I said "thrash" not wear out. Basically, think of it as your computer's disk getting very fragmented and the storage has tons of small little empty holes, but not enough large ones. So when you ask it for something large the underlying operating system has to move stuff around (if possible) to make enough space to give you the memory. On full operating systems like windows, you having things like "virtual memory" where it can write out stuff to disk when not in use, and bring it back later. This is not usually ever done for systems with small memory/slow speed however as it just isn't really practical or sometimes even possible.

I was unaware that "thrash" was a technical term.
http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/t/thrash.htm

I have heard the term "fragmented disk".
Maybe replying with the above quote would have spared the silly, childish responses by others on the Forum.

Again, we are supposed to be adults.

[Dave Hicks]

Please don't pick on a calculator user for not knowing a computer term like "thrash". I'm sure HP tries to make pocket products so that you don't necessarily have to be a computer scientist to use them.

[Thomas_Sch]

to bobkrohn:
In an other thread you mentioned, that you contacted the support from HP about your problems. If i remember correctly, they asked you to send your (complete) programs / data, whatever your doing with your prime.
Tim has written, that the programs will be sent to him for analyzing.

Did you send them the requested informations?
- If so, did you get answers?
- If not, why not?
Maybe you're doing something very unusual with your prime, .. but nobody knows!
It's not the prime itself, its the prime and your use cases.
Without using, without programming, there are no problems, i suspect.

It is not likely that anyone who has problems with the Prime exactly does things that you do. Please give HP the chance to help you.

[DrD]

There have been past posts in this forum, where unusual function or command behavior has been described, and getting back to more predictable operation required some form of reset. A likely explanation for this change was that memory had become corrupt.

The exact path followed resulting in those conditions, isn't clearly known, in my experience. Suffice to say that many activities were part of its recent history, and while some worked, others didn't. Gradually, things reached a point where it was obvious that commands were no longer working as expected, and resetting the calc was necessary. It can be a frustrating experience, true enough; but it may be helpful to also bare in mind that performing a reset, when things act up, can be beneficial.

On my Win7 machine, I often use file and registry cleanup utilities, and frequently the overall PC's operation is improved. This garbage collection isn't limited to PC's, and I think it's similar in the case of the Prime. If things aren't readily 'on the step', backup the calc, and consider resetting it. "Restore and Refresh" via the conn kit. It may just improve matters.

Atonement lamentation emphasis DIM(), SIZE(), length():

Code:


EXPORT Exit()
BEGIN
  local a:=MAKELIST(ASC("childish"),X,1,DIM(X),1),
          b:=length(a(1)),
          c:=SIZE(a(1))+1;
   rect_p(G0,15,20,235,155,rgb(255,255,255),rgb(0,0,0));     
   repeat
     textout_p(c-b+".  I must stop being "+char(a(1))+"!",20,20-(c-b*15),3,rgb(255,255,255));      
     b:=b-1;
  until b<1;   
  wait(3);
  return "Reality";
END;

[Dougggg]

I noticed if i use custom spreadsheet apps with lots of data stored in cells it will "thrash" the MEM , LIST and Matrix commands and to get them back i have to do a full reset to get them back lossing the custom apps. Seems like a memory management issue. I cannot recreat i other then with those spreadsheat apps. using programs dont seem to cause the issue. I thought embeding an app in a spreadsheet would be good way to do a program that would create alot of data but...

[DrD]

Are your issues repeatable? If your results are able to be replicated, it would be helpful for others to investigate and possibly discover fixes for problems. So far, with rev 6975, and maybe my current ways and means, lately, I haven't had the problem as was present in previous versions.

Any help you can provide by way of details would be wonderful!

-Dale-

[bobkrohn]

(03-14-2015 08:16 AM)Thomas_Sch Wrote:  to bobkrohn:
In an other thread you mentioned, that you contacted the support from HP about your problems. If i remember correctly, they asked you to send your (complete) programs / data, whatever your doing with your prime.
Tim has written, that the programs will be sent to him for analyzing.

Did you send them the requested informations?
- If so, did you get answers?
- If not, why not?
Maybe you're doing something very unusual with your prime, .. but nobody knows!
It's not the prime itself, its the prime and your use cases.
Without using, without programming, there are no problems, i suspect.

It is not likely that anyone who has problems with the Prime exactly does things that you do. Please give HP the chance to help you.

"It is not likely that anyone who has problems with the Prime exactly does things that you do."
Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate that.

Talked by phone to Tech Support on 2/24/2015
I sent him the sample "MyNote" source code with instructions on how to replicate the misbehavior. I did the same on this Forum.
http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-318...ight=notes

I only just heard back from HP (Tim Wessman) yesterday (Friday 3/14/2015)
I have no way of knowing what "typical" turn around time is on these things.
That was because, Tim Wessman apparently, very kindly, took a personal interest.
I resent the above information to him just a few days ago.
He said that, YES, there IS a problem on the Prime, with Notes as I had stated.
He thought he had identified where the problem is

I said, I hope it's not like when you take your car in to the mechanic and he says,
"I believe I’ve identified where the problem is, it's the nut behind the steering wheel"

(just in case... that is a pun, a joke. Not sure if it translates out of English)

I have no more info at this time. I assume (and hope) Tim is enjoying a his weekend off. I'm doing the same.

.... Of course part of that playing with the Prime.

PS
The issue above is with Notes not the Spreadsheet.
I am also making the Spreadsheet a huge part of my larger program.
So far, no issues with the Spreadsheet itself.
Notes is key as it seems to be the only way to easily get data in/out of the Spreadsheet.
I am writing/reading .CSV files.
Even though the Spreadsheet provides for 10,000 Rows (for me Records), I don't think it has the ability to actually, practically deal with that.
I tried reading in large .CSV files (6 Columns per Row) as an experiment and it seemed that about 3,000-4,000 was the limit. The Prime choked. (not a technical term)
In my App don't really NEED 10,000 records but it's SO nice to have 10,000 valid "addresses" to store records in. Allows for grouping data.
Really amazing for this compact device. On HP-41 was thrilled to have 800 storage registers.
The prime has (I think, don't know for sure) about 16MB memory but have gathered that there is a lot of behind the scenes "overhead" that can eat it up.
Per a post on this Forum
"There is 32MB of RAM of which approximate half is free on a clean boot. "

[Dougggg]

It could be i have a hardware issue i did get one of the 1st, it appears nobody elase has the issue,

[moderator: edited out offensive comment]

[Thomas_Sch]

(03-14-2015 10:17 PM)bobkrohn Wrote:  ...
Talked by phone to Tech Support on 2/24/2015
I sent him the sample "MyNote" source code with instructions on how to replicate the misbehavior. I did the same on this Forum. ...

O.k. It seems I misunderstood you and your situation.
I had the opinion and the hope, you had non only those little bug mentioned, but also reported your massive problems regarding every day re-formatting your prime, crashes, lags, etc. pp. you are complaining about (see your post here http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-335...l#pid30515) to HP.

I am really amazed with what perseverance you endure these massive problems without addressing HP directly and specific with regard to a remedy.

[bobkrohn]

I'm not following what you're saying.

I AM having LOTS of difficulty with programming the Prime.
It's only just one of the many issues had to do with Notes and I could replicate it consistently and with a code snippit.
I just have no evidence that the Spreadsheet App itself, in particular, has been acting strange.

Constant crashes, strange behavior and such. Just a few hours ago I went through the whole Factory Reset procedure. Again.
That is the C-F-O-Symb, 4-FLS Format C:, 9-Reset, usbtools, thing to theoretically reset the Flash ROM Firmware to what is is from the factory.
This was after half a day of working with no problems.

The specific problem the machine was having this time (and a few times before) was it was not recognizing LOCAL declared variables and even EXPORTed Sub Routines, There was even a Parameter in the EXPORT line that was tagged as a "problem" when I did a CHECK from the Program Editor. The program ran fine a few hours before and I had not made any changes to that particular program.
In the past, doing the Factory Reset restored full function. It didn't today so far.
I'm stewing right now. Try again tomorrow.

Have not addressed HP directly ????? What???

That's why I am on this Forum. I was hoping to get information. I called HP Tech Support. I have been in contact with Tim Wessman.
I posted a code snippit that consistently replicates that particular problem on both the physical Prime and the Emulator.

Each time I had a contact I asked if maybe I had a lemon and how to get a replacement. No one offered advice on that. The HP website is geared towards warranty issues on printers and computers. It did not recognize the Model number on the back of the Prime. There is no selection in the "Parts Department" for calculators. I found an 800 number for Parts so will try that Monday. Will also call the Tech Support line again.
Amazon where I bought it only has a 30 day return policy. (In the original package. Now long gone anyway)

The abject morons that created the official Getting Started Guide and the big User Manual did not include ANY contact information for Tech Support let alone Warranty/Repair. No phone number, no web address, no nothing or should I say "know nothing".
Really inexcusable.
Check for yourself. Search for the word "warranty" or "repair" or "technical support".
If I worked for HP I would be ashamed of these people.

Don't know if it's foolish but I'm thinking of buying another Prime just to see if I have a lemon. Guess I could stuff my 1st machine into the new package and send it back to Amazon. Hey I like THAT idea.
Shucks, the Amazon price went up from $97 in December to $110 today

Finally. Yes I am a persistent, focused and highly motivated person. That's why I can't let this thing go. I want to solve it and fix it. That's part of being successful in life.
It's a blessing and a curse. I've been that way my whole life.