Is 3D graphing still on HP's Prime to-do list?

[Glenn Becker]

Hi --

Han put together a nice 3D package, but I was wondering whether HP has any plans to add this -- or something equivalent -- to the official Prime software. I only pop onto the forums from time to time, and haven't seen it mentioned in a while.

Thanks,

- Glenn

[Tim Wessman]

It is still on "the list".

Note that the last major release was primarily focused on AP Calculus/AP Statistics enhancements. 3D graphing does not really fall into any of that as it is more a university/professional level thing.

Also, the fact that Han's grapher is so darn good meant our marketing guys felt less urgency. He did a great job with it!

[Tugdual]

(07-08-2015 11:38 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  It is still on "the list".

Note that the last major release was primarily focused on AP Calculus/AP Statistics enhancements. 3D graphing does not really fall into any of that as it is more a university/professional level thing.

Also, the fact that Han's grapher is so darn good meant our marketing guys felt less urgency. He did a great job with it!

Now we can blame Han and we'll be stuck with a BASIC version.
Interesting to see that university/pro is not a primary target for the Prime.

[parisse]

This raises the question of exam mode: user programs will not be accessible once the led are flashing. Is there any way to make a list of user programs "approved by HP" that would still be accessible in exam mode?
(3d geometry *is* in the curriculum for the French baccalaureat)

[Tim Wessman]

(07-09-2015 05:35 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  Interesting to see that university/pro is not a primary target for the Prime.

When the focus of the release was quote "AP Statistics and AP Calculus" then no - university and pro users were not the focus. That doesn't mean that the focus of another release would be university/pro users at all.

[Archanus]

(07-09-2015 02:52 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  When the focus of the release was quote "AP Statistics and AP Calculus" then no - university and pro users were not the focus. That doesn't mean that the focus of another release would be university/pro users at all.

Please Tim, for the next firmware focus to University & Pro ! We need all the tools that the competitors have (like, Solving Systems of Multiple Grade Equations).

[mandresve]

(07-09-2015 04:41 PM)Archanus Wrote:  Please Tim, for the next firmware focus to University & Pro ! We need all the tools that the competitors have (like, Solving Systems of Multiple Grade Equations).

Yes, I support the idea 100%, please for the sake of many people.

[Parmenedes]

Wait, so this calculator does not come with 3d graphing?! I must say I am on the verge of sending this calculator back to amazon. First it gets stuck on the language select screen as soon as I turn it on. After 20 minutes of searching the web to figure out why it's glitching out, I finally find a solution. Then I try to install the software that came with the cd. None of it works. Autorun doesn't work (even when I specifically tell it to do so). The readme files are blank - completely empty. Eventually I get that working. Then (after exploring the menus then looking in the instructions then finally searching the web) I discover that 3d graphing - a utility that has come stock on every HP graphing calculator for more than 20 years is not included in your new flagship, even after it's been out for over 2 years?! Apparently I can download a program that a third party made, but this should have been available right out of the box as an app that HP themselves made.

I was disappointed when I read about how limited RPN is on this model and by the fact that access to the ios/android HP Prime app doesn't come with purchase of the HP Prime, but I could have lived with that. I am, however, flabbergasted at how rough and unfinished this calculator is 2 years after its launch.

I apologize if this post is too ranty. I am feeling very frustrated after having spent an hour with this calculator without having been able to actually DO anything with it. I have been a long-time fan of HP's calculators, having owned a 48gx, 49g, and 49g+. I was very excited to get the HP Prime but am now questioning my decision to purchase one.

[pwarmuth]

The main reason I decided to make the Prime my primary graphing calculator is, well, because of the fantastic and advanced graphing features. The touch screen makes graphing and navigation of the menus SO much easier. Being able to zoom with the + and - keys... pure genius. The keyboard layout also appeals to me, though I must say I have to tip the calculator up at an angle to read some of the keys. The color choices are abysmal. Anyways, the CAS is very powerful but I have to be able to get by without it anyways. If I don't need the CAS or the graphing I use the Casio Fx-991ex. The Prime might not be the most complete package out there right now (and don't even get me started on selling me a gimped calculator that wouldn't support the advertised hardware features of the later hardware release), but I personally think it has the most potential and is going in the right direction. If I didn't care about the algebraic entry or the touch screen and graphing capabilities (seriously, being able to graph conics directly is a huge advantage) I'd be using the HP 50G for my CAS. The 50G is... very complicated however and would take some getting used to. The Prime nailed it for ease of use when it comes to common educational uses. Stick with it, it'll grow on you.

[Helge Gabert]

I'm sorry to hear that you feel you can't "do anything" with the Prime.

I bought a Prime back in 2013, when it first came out, and been through all of the ups and downs, and I can honestly say that I can't live without it any more. I "do something" with the Prime every day (mostly using the CAS system). And it is fun writing PPL programs (both Home and CAS).

Let me add that I also own the HP15C, HP41CX, HP28S, HP48SX, HP48GX, HP49, and HP50 (which I still use from time to time). None come close to the speed and power of the Prime. I don't even miss RPN/RPL any more! (I never imagined I would say this).

HP has updated the Prime's firmware a number of times, and the development team listens to user's concerns. 3D graphing isn't that important to me, but the third party program by Han is very good, so just download it.

In any case, my advice is: don't be too hasty, use the Prime and it will grow on you.

[Parmenedes]

Your condescension is not appreciated. I must have a faulty unit. So far, it wouldn't turn on properly, the software didn't work, and having followed all the instructions to the letter to install Han's 3D graphing utility, it is not showing up in my calculator in any way, shape, or form. Having to download a file, unzip it, copy/paste the contents of said file, execute a dozen different commands in the connectivity software (after executing a couple dozen commands along with half an hour of troubleshooting just to get said software even to operate), and still not having the ultility work (which should have been included with the calculator out of the box) is simply ridiculous. What's the point of even having this connectivity software if the process to put an app on the calculator is so much more complicated than it would be just to drag-and-drop it?

Edit: By the way, one thing I've learned from my research in trying (still unsuccessfully) to get this calculator to work is that most people who have bothered to write anything about it online (present company excluded, obviously) prefer the older models to the prime. While adding a touchscreen and color display was a brilliant idea, if only for the ease of zooming in and out of graphs and moving them around, HP has sacrificed a lot of utility for bling. Thus far it seems that a lot of potential has been utterly wasted.

[Parmenedes]

Update:

After continuing to troubleshoot this issue, I discovered a few things. First, I thought that I had the latest firmware seeing as how the connectivity software told me that I did. Believing it was my mistake I suppose. I figured out that the software itself needed to be updated, which I did, at which point it decided to let me in on the fact that my calculator did in fact need to have its firmware updated. Excited that I had figured out what was screwing up my calculator, I clicked on the button in the connectivity software to update the firmware, at which point said software crashed, along with my calculator. I tried factory resetting my Prime (the only option that would get it working at all at that point... thankfully I hadn't had it long enough to put anything of value in it yet) along with some other steps, but the software still refuses to update the firmware and hangs every time I try.

This is a great example of why I had a gripe in the first place. I'm sure someone at HP decided that the hoops that they would force their customers to jump through were not all that big and that there weren't all that many of them and that they would only set them on fire a little bit. 2 to 3 hours after unboxing I still do not have a working calculator.

[Parmenedes]

Update 2:

After another 15 minutes of troubleshooting, I came across a post that pointed out that in order to update the firmware, the calculator has to connected through USB 2.0, NOT 3.0... because 2.0 is better i guess? In order to even get at a 2.0 port, I had to move my computer around and plug the Prime cable into the back of it, at which point everything worked like a charm. I'm documenting all this in case someone else experiences the same trouble I had so that they can see that all you have to do is follow this simple process. I'll outline the steps in case anyone else is having similar trouble since the instruction book, online manual, and forums don't go over this:

1) Factory reset your calculator as soon as you open it by sticking a pin in the hole in the back.
2) Throw the cd in the trash since it doesn't work.
3) Download all the software online instead.
4) Update said software even if it says you don't need to.
5) Restart your computer.
6) Name your calculator - something cute, like "Fluffy Bunny", or "Banging my head against a brick wall would be more fun than this"
6) Update your firmware even if it says you don't need to.
6a) Make sure NOT to use a USB 3.0 port since it's apparently obsolete compared to USB 2.0
7) Do a search for whatever utilities you need or want since they might not come on the Prime even if every graphing calculator HP has released in the last 25 years (possibly more?) has said utilities.
8) Download said utilities.
9) Follow out-of-date instructions that are written for a previous version of the connectivity software and that don't work for the current version (don't worry - you'll figure it out!)
10) Oh, step nine involves half a dozen sub-steps, including unzipping, opening, cutting, pasting, copying (different from cutting), renaming, saving... aw, hell, let's say a full dozen sub-steps just to cover our bases, so we'll skip to step 21 now.
21) Ask yourself if you still want this calculator.

And you're done! If you're wanting to use the HP Prime to graph in 3d, you can probably follow the above steps and be able to do it in a mere hour instead of the 3 it took me.

[ebswift]

You must have been pretty unlucky to have things connected in such a way that it didn't work. I got my calc 2nd-hand, though in new condition. It needed firmware updates and I just connected it and followed the prompts through the connectivity kit, and everything just worked (through a couple of updates now). While my needs are very rudimentary right at this point in time I have found the calc a pleasure to use, especially when using youtube to find out how to do things. These forums have also been invaluable. Historically it seems HP's new calc releases are a 'work in progress' and I very much doubt they intend on leaving this model lacking for the professional users, looking at all their updates and commitment to the platform I'm confident they will keep building it into a platform to be reckoned with.

[Tugdual]

(09-10-2015 08:35 AM)ebswift Wrote:  I very much doubt they intend on leaving this model lacking for the professional users, looking at all their updates and commitment to the platform I'm confident they will keep building it into a platform to be reckoned with.

I say amen to this, it is good to believe.
I may even buy a Prime and let my 50g take the dust when it happens.
Though I would prefer a Prime II because firmware is not going to repaint and re-layout the keyboard anyway.

[DrD]

Parmenedes,

There is much computational capability within the Prime. Your comments are similar to others that have preceded you. Looking back in time, those who have preceded you probably realize that you are just going through typical learning curve constraints, as you accumulate working familiarity with this device. It is frustrating at times, but you've still quite a ways to go, before you are in concert pitch tune with the Prime's actual status quo.

It begins with understanding the Prime's marketing goals. Fully realizing the two sides (HOME and CAS), as distinct modes, will be another thing to confront, before long. There will be things that are not as well developed for a 'specific need', as you might expect; with a diminishing quantity of actual bugs. But you probably will find the authors are forthright in providing guidance, which is above and beyond, and, thankfully, respected by a lot of us. It is helpful to recognize that this product has much more to offer than it lacks, and if one suggestion is at all worthwhile, please proceed with patience to learn the boundaries of each 'issue' as you encounter it. Asking questions along the way, rather than enduring the frustration, or agonizing over why something doesn't happen as you expect, can be valuable assist.

I've had the Prime for quite awhile now, and continue climbing the curve, made easier along the way with better understanding of the psychology, the mindset, that brings each feature to where it is today. This helps anticipate how things can actually work, rather than how I might have expected. Particularly, on the programming side, you will likely encounter this idea. The learning curve can be more easily ascended with this synergy, rather than reliance on historical product performance.

I hope you can relate to this suggestion, to work with the system, rather than against the tide. I don't mean any condescension, just passing along one of those, "been there, done that" tips to help you avoid traps that seem to capture those of us who have benefited from earlier technologies, and just don't 'get' why the Prime doesn't rise up, immediately, from those.

Soon you'll find the Prime much easier, more productive, and be better able to accept the evolution of this device. At least I have, and have seen others move in this direction. It will take you from the "Educator's" product, it's designed to be, more towards a "professional user's" product, quite adaptable to serious problem solving.

-Dale-

[Parmenedes]

Thanks for the input, Dale.

A new question: As I've been exploring the Prime, I noticed that I'm getting a syntax error when copy/pasting an expression from the CAS to the advanced graphing app. Specifically, I differentiated the function (1-x^3)/(1+x^4) in CAS, then tried to copy/paste the derivative (which is a pretty lengthy expression) into the advanced graphing app. Every time I hit the enter key, I'd get a syntax error. I tried it with and without tick marks as well as with and without "y=". Any idea why it's doing that and how to fix it?

[Joe Horn]

(09-12-2015 02:25 AM)Parmenedes Wrote:  As I've been exploring the Prime, I noticed that I'm getting a syntax error when copy/pasting an expression from the CAS to the advanced graphing app. Specifically, I differentiated the function (1-x^3)/(1+x^4) in CAS, then tried to copy/paste the derivative (which is a pretty lengthy expression) into the advanced graphing app. Every time I hit the enter key, I'd get a syntax error. I tried it with and without tick marks as well as with and without "y=". Any idea why it's doing that and how to fix it?

My guess is that the Advanced Graphing app's need for uppercase variables (e.g. X and Y instead of x and y) is causing that problem.

[DrD]

Joe has the answer for you.

Soon you will bump up against another feature. Using CAS commands in HOME may require quotes around the contents inside of parentheses. If you find commands that issue errors in this scenario, you may find this tip worthwhile.

Sometimes the documentation is less than fully developed, (in the user guide and on screen help files). Things are underway to help resolve matters, but just be aware that written info and reality may not be in perfect agreement.

-Dale-

[Parmenedes]

So why would the CAS use lowercase variables at all? It seems like it would be better to have the Prime be consistent across the whole system.