rad, grad, deg

[tigger]

You can change between all these three mesures with "mode" and then "display" or "cas".

(I do not have my HP50g with me).

Is there any way to change this with softkeys. It means in one menu I might find "rad, grad, deg" in one line. Could I find such a menu by using softkeys?

[rprosperi]

(09-06-2015 03:45 PM)tigger Wrote:  You can change between all these three mesures with "mode" and then "display" or "cas".

(I do not have my HP50g with me).

Is there any way to change this with softkeys. It means in one menu I might find "rad, grad, deg" in one line. Could I find such a menu by using softkeys?

Hold down [LS] and press [MODE], then press [F2-Angle], you will see the angle mode option softkeys.

This too is described in the manual; you really should research there before asking these kind of questions. It is the hope of most users here that a member will do reasonable research on their own time before posting questions here on the Forum.

[ijabbott]

(09-06-2015 04:50 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(09-06-2015 03:45 PM)tigger Wrote:  You can change between all these three mesures with "mode" and then "display" or "cas".

(I do not have my HP50g with me).

Is there any way to change this with softkeys. It means in one menu I might find "rad, grad, deg" in one line. Could I find such a menu by using softkeys?

Hold down [LS] and press [MODE], then press [F2-Angle], you will see the angle mode option softkeys.

This too is described in the manual; you really should research there before asking these kind of questions. It is the hope of most users here that a member will do reasonable research on their own time before posting questions here on the Forum.

Don't be too harsh. It isn't described in the obvious place in the manual, i.e. the part that tells you how to change the angle measure. I can't even see your sequence in the manual!

EDIT: It's in Appendix G of the advanced user's reference manual.

[rprosperi]

(09-06-2015 05:10 PM)ijabbott Wrote:  Don't be too harsh. It isn't described in the obvious place in the manual, i.e. the part that tells you how to change the angle measure. I can't even see your sequence in the manual!

EDIT: It's in Appendix G of the advanced user's reference manual.

For a first question, I would agree. For about the 15th question in 3 days, all or most of which could be answered with some research, I don't agree that this is too harsh. Sure, one could just ignore it, but I think it's more useful to both answer the question and point out general expectations here.

[tigger]

Thank you very much.
I had it before, but today it did not come to my mind.

Besides I would like to work more with the manual on my own, but I think it is not too easy to work with the manual. Sometimes I do not know the right keywords. May be there should be another page in the internet how to work with the manual of the HP50g.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(09-06-2015 06:27 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  For a first question, I would agree. For about the 15th question in 3 days, all or most of which could be answered with some research, I don't agree that this is too harsh. Sure, one could just ignore it, but I think it's more useful to both answer the question and point out general expectations here.

1+

[brickviking]

(09-06-2015 07:41 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  

(09-06-2015 06:27 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  For a first question, I would agree. For about the 15th question in 3 days, all or most of which could be answered with some research, I don't agree that this is too harsh. Sure, one could just ignore it, but I think it's more useful to both answer the question and point out general expectations here.

1+

I agree, but with reservations. If a user doesn't have great English comprehension skills, and manuals are typically technical, then they have a bit of a hill to climb. That doesn't change the fact that the information is in the manual, it just makes it less easy for them to find. Hence the questions about phrases to search for.

My problems stem partly from unfamiliarity with the calculator itself, and partly from unfamiliarity with the fields for which the calculator gets used, i.e. advanced mathematics, UserRPL/SysRPL programming. I at least can read, and hopefully understand the manuals. Sometimes I need a little more assistance, and I'll bet if I can't find it in the manual, someone else will tell me I failed to look in the right place <grin>. Or that I didn't install the right third-party program...

(Post 20)

[Bill (Smithville NJ)]

(09-06-2015 06:27 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  For a first question, I would agree. For about the 15th question in 3 days, all or most of which could be answered with some research, I don't agree that this is too harsh. Sure, one could just ignore it, but I think it's more useful to both answer the question and point out general expectations here.

Bob,

I just want to make sure that I UNDERSTAND the general expectations on the HPMuseum forum.

I am expected to have totally read ALL the available manuals and that I have TOTALLY understood what was in those manuals. At that point I am allowed to post a question with the understanding that I probably have omitted to read one of the many obscure documents that is available somewhere on the web that has the answer to my question. I should also expect to be chastised for not doing 100% due diligence - since by doing so I am consuming useless bandwidth, polluting the forum with useless questions, annoying other forum members, etc.

I am obviously being facetious here, but it does beg the question - how much knowledge should be assumed of a new user of a calculator before we chose to publicly chastise them for their lack of "general expectations."

From my point of view, many times an "in the manual" question results in a dialog in the forum that leads to a very interesting discussion on other aspects of the "in the manual"question. The end result is that I learn new aspects that I never was aware of.

Let's not discourage people from posting. I appreciate ALL questions, since I have done my fair share of posting what many felt was "in the manual" questions.

I have to admit that I am a member of another forum where I was attacked for stupid, irritating questions. And I have to admit, I am now very timid about posting in that forum.

I sincerely hope that Tigger will not become timid to post in the HPMuseum. Please remember that we ALL were new to a particular calculator and that we all expressed excited interest in how to use it. Let's not discourage that new owner excitement.

Bill
Smithville, NJ

[Brad Barton]

Here's a very old document we all should read. Originally posted by early adopter BBS'ers, these lessons still hold for any discussion board.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-ques...#id2912437

Quite entertaining at some points, and has the added bonus of the ring of truth. Enjoy!

Brad

[rprosperi]

For those concerned with my reply:

Please take the time to read all the posts/threads tigger submitted over the past week and a half or so. I believe you will find:
a. There are a lot of questions; 10-15+ ?
b. Most (maybe all?) of the questions could have been answered by reading manuals before posting a question.
c. After a few initial rounds of Q & A, several other people also suggested reading manuals before posting basic questions, albeit generally using nicer, but perhaps less clear, language.
d. I took the time to answer more than one of his questions.

While it was not my intent to speak for everyone, after years of participating, the trends of what is and isn’t well received and responded to is fairly clear; it was my goal to explain that to a new user to help guide his posting in a way that will result in useful replies.

Also, for a user new to a complex device like the 50g, IMHO, it is good to direct a user to do research in the manuals for 2 important reasons: of course to find an answer, but maybe even more importantly, to become familiar with the organization and contents of said manuals. He has repeatedly said he has trouble finding information in the 50g manuals (which is something we ALL agree on); I believe the only way to overcome that is to spend more time trying, rather than seeking direct answers in the forum with no research.

It was not my intention to offend anyone. If I did, I apologize.

[matthiaspaul]

(09-06-2015 04:50 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Hold down [LS] and press [MODE], then press [F2-Angle], you will see the angle mode option softkeys.

It might be worth noting that this only works with system flag -117 being set (soft menus on). Otherwise, he'll have to navigate through the pop-up menu.

I seem to vaguely remember having seen a keyboard shortcut to switch angular modes directly, but I can't find it in the manual. Anyone?

Greetings,

Matthias

[Bill (Smithville NJ)]

(09-07-2015 02:28 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  For those concerned with my reply:

Please take the time to read all the posts/threads tigger submitted over the past week and a half or so. I believe you will find:

I have. Only a few could be considered "read manual" type of question. The others were either general new person questions, or actually led to very interesting discussions that would not have occurred if the post had not been made.

Quote:a. There are a lot of questions; 10-15+ ?

What is your point? Very new person posts a lot of questions during their early excitement to learn how to use their new device. How many is excessive? The level of posting will usually fade over time as they either get more familiar with their device OR as they just give up all hope and just fade away. I just don't want to discourage them at this stage of their excitement.

Quote:b. Most (maybe all?) of the questions could have been answered by reading manuals before posting a question.

This may very well be true. But then other people here would have missed out on the sometimes very interesting discussions that occurred. Also, what seems obvious to an experienced user, may seem obscure to a new user. In the case of this thread, the answer was apparently in the Appendix G of the Advanced User's Reference Manual. For someone just becoming acquainted with the 50G, then the Appendix is NOT an obvious place to find an answer.

Quote:c. After a few initial rounds of Q & A, several other people also suggested reading manuals before posting basic questions, albeit generally using nicer, but perhaps less clear, language.

True, but that doesn't necessary mean that they should. What constitutes "basic questions"? What is Basic to an experienced person, may very well not be Basic to someone just getting started.

Quote:d. I took the time to answer more than one of his questions.

Very good, you get a gold star. Unfortunately, I do not own any of the 48-50 series and were not able to answer any of the questions. But I did notice that you did answer some of them.

Quote:While it was not my intent to speak for everyone, after years of participating, the trends of what is and isn’t well received and responded to is fairly clear; it was my goal to explain that to a new user to help guide his posting in a way that will result in useful replies.

As you say, you have had years of participating. Tigger has had a few weeks of participation. Why don't we just sit back and let him learn how the forum works. Why do we feel the urge to explain what he should be doing so that his posts are appropriate to us? Over time, he will learn what we all have learned by participating. Let's give him the same time that we all have had. Don't short-circuit the enthusiasm that he has.

Please note - what is not well received by one person may be well received by someone else. Over the years I have learned a great deal of information from a new person enquiring about an "in the manual" question, someone replying with the answer - with the result of my slapping my head as I realized that I never knew that.

Quote:Also, for a user new to a complex device like the 50g, IMHO, it is good to direct a user to do research in the manuals for 2 important reasons: of course to find an answer, but maybe even more importantly, to become familiar with the organization and contents of said manuals.

Agreed. But repeatedly telling someone to "read the manuals" just tells them to "bug off, kid - you're bothering me". It does nothing to encourage them. But maybe that's what we want to accomplish. Go away until you are smart enough to rise to our level of expertise. Then you might be welcomed back to participate at the "adult's table."

Quote:He has repeatedly said he has trouble finding information in the 50g manuals (which is something we ALL agree on);

I think you have hit the head on the nail - everyone agrees on the fact that the manuals can be difficult to find information in. This statement alone should be enough to be tolerant of new users who are seeking to find information out about their new calculator.

Quote:I believe the only way to overcome that is to spend more time trying, rather than seeking direct answers in the forum with no research.

I don't even know what to say about this statement. Reminds me of my mom telling me "You just don't try hard enough."

Quote:It was not my intention to offend anyone. If I did, I apologize.

It's not a matter of being offended. But I feel that the forum sometime displays a sort of elitism. This is not uncommon to a lot of forums. But I really wish and hope that we all strive to not fall into this trap.



One last comment: To Tigger and to all others silently reading this, please feel free to continue to post your questions. If they are on something I know about, I will attempt to to give an answer. If not, them I'm sure there are others here that will take the time to answer them.


I've had my say and will now sign off from this thread.

Bill
Smithville, NJ

[Allen]

(09-07-2015 02:28 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  d. I took the time to answer more than one of his questions.

I also satisfy (d) above and agree with Bob's suggestion that authors dedicate some time offline for self-study in between asking questions.

The natural evidence of study will be clear: questions become either more complex or less frequent. This is rewarding for both the student and the teachers because the joy of learning and the joy of teaching are exchanged. At a rate of a dozen banal questions per week, the joy of teaching decreases.

I don't mind doing it, but retyping answers from a public manual feels like I am (we are) being used like a search engine automata rather than volunteer teachers with decades of experience programming HPs.

HP programming haiku:
My fingers fill up
Your digital registers
With post-fix beauty

[brickviking]

(09-07-2015 02:30 PM)Allen Wrote:  I don't mind doing it, but retyping answers from a public manual feels like I am (we are) being used like a search engine automata rather than volunteer teachers with decades of experience programming HPs.

I note that tigger specifically asked for useful keywords to search for, as he presumably had trouble with the keywords he'd selected. Heck, he even pointed us to the manual he'd tried to search in, which was one of the manuals we'd pointed him to. Perhaps Chapter references might be more useful in future, a la the reference to App. G.

Yes, we like to think we use the best calculators in the world. But at least from this corner, I personally find the fx9860gII easier to use, even though it's not as powerful. However, I'm persevering with the HP-50G, as I swore that some day I'd have something to make up for my HP-34C. And something to keep these braincells from rotting any faster than they have to.

TL;DR: let's stop slagging the guy off. He's got the message to look in the manuals. The best we can do is to be useful without the brickbats. And Bob, this is not meant to be addressed to you specifically, as I know you're a highly-respected member of these forums.

(Post 21)

[Skyblues]

(09-07-2015 08:38 PM)brickviking Wrote:  ... However, I'm persevering with the HP-50G, as I swore that some day I'd have something to make up for my HP-34C. And something to keep these braincells from rotting any faster than they have to.

(Post 21)

I can relate. I'll be 61 the end of this month and trying to keep my braincells from rotting is the main reason I enjoy playing with my 50G. I have no other reason for having it (besides a love of math).

As confusing (and sometimes frustrating) as it can be, I enjoy the 50G because it makes me think. I have heard some say that the 50G is too complex. I disagree, I think it has the perfect balance of complexity and power.

I have a few different calculators but the 50G is an addiction. My Prime is my second favorite.

Sometimes I do get a bit frustrated when I can't get things to work (particularly the programming part) but it's the help I get from the people on this forum that keeps me going.

Jim

[Joe Horn]

(09-07-2015 12:03 PM)matthiaspaul Wrote:  I seem to vaguely remember have seen a keyboard shortcut to switch angular modes directly, but I can't find it in the manual. Anyone?

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no direct keyboard shortcut for DEG/RAD/GRAD that's built into the 50g. I *think* the only keyboard sequences that are built-in (assuming flag -117 is set) are:

1. LS+MODE, ANGLE
2. LS-PRG, NXT, MODES, ANGLE
3. MODE, down, down, CHOOSE

... not to mention trivial things like typing DEG (or RAD or GRAD) in ALPHA mode and pressing ENTER, or setting/clearing the related flags, of course. If you want single-key access to the RAD and DEG functions, assign them to keys, and leave your 50g in USER mode.

[Brad Barton]

(09-10-2015 09:46 AM)Joe Horn Wrote:  ... not to mention trivial things like typing DEG (or RAD or GRAD) in ALPHA mode and pressing ENTER, or setting/clearing the related flags, of course. If you want single-key access to the RAD and DEG functions, assign them to keys, and leave your 50g in USER mode.

Also of course you could write short, single-command programs and assign them to a custom menu. Again a trivial solution.