Default time zone = GMT+10 ?

[Dieter]

I know that date and time in these forums can be adjusted in the user control panel so that they match the local settings as soon as you log in.

But I always wondered why the default time zone (which is displayed for any user that is not logged in, i.e. also for all Guests visiting this site) seems to be set to GMT+10 (if I got this right) – that's somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. OK, this is convenient for members in Northeast Australia, but since this is an international forum with users from all over the world, I would consider GMT or UTC a more appropriate default setting. Especially if this would be displayed as well: "Current time: 20:45 UTC". And, if you should do so, please use the 24 h format. ;-)

The same holds for the date format: mm-dd-yyyy is fine for US users, but confusing for most of the rest of the world. What about the ISO standard yyyy-mm-dd? Or maybe at least the month could be given in letters (Oct 11, 2015 instead of 10-11-2015).

Or is there any special reason for the current settings?

Dieter

[Dave Hicks]

All just default settings as far as I can remember. There may be more options in the future.

[Dieter]

(10-23-2015 12:30 AM)Dave Hicks Wrote:  All just default settings as far as I can remember. There may be more options in the future.

OK, thank you.
May I humbly ask if it is possible to change these default settings without much effort ?-)

Dieter

[Katie Wasserman]

(10-22-2015 06:45 PM)Dieter Wrote:  But I always wondered why the default time zone (which is displayed for any user that is not logged in, i.e. also for all Guests visiting this site) seems to be set to GMT+10 (if I got this right) – that's somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. OK, this is convenient for members in Northeast Australia, but since this is an international forum with users from all over the world, I would consider GMT or UTC a more appropriate default setting.

I don't see why GMT/UTC would be a better default setting. It's just another time zone that perhaps has more people living it in than GMT+10. I would argue that the best default should be the one where the least number of members (or potential members) would need to change it. Likely GMT-8 (the west coast of the US), I suspect that this would cover the largest number of current members. Possibly UTC+8 as this has by far the largest population by time zone.

Quote:The same holds for the date format: mm-dd-yyyy is fine for US users, but confusing for most of the rest of the world. What about the ISO standard yyyy-mm-dd?

This makes sense in that it is an international standard.

[Dave Hicks]

I was also thinking GMT-8 because it's Corvallis/Palo Alto time.

[Dieter]

(10-24-2015 03:52 AM)Katie Wasserman Wrote:  I don't see why GMT/UTC would be a better default setting. It's just another time zone that perhaps has more people living it in than GMT+10.

I do not think that UTC ist "just another time zone". It's a common standard in many areas where a universal reference for users all over the world is required. That's why there is a U in UTC. ;-) In aviation, astronomy and many internet applications UTC is the standard time zone. So I think it's obvious that this should also apply to an international forum like this.

Dieter

[Katie Wasserman]

(10-24-2015 05:16 PM)Dieter Wrote:  I do not think that UTC ist "just another time zone". It's a common standard in many areas where a universal reference for users all over the world is required. That's why there is a U in UTC. ;-) In aviation, astronomy and many internet applications UTC is the standard time zone.

True, but how many forum members want to see the time on posts in UTC, I think only those that live in GMT+0, so everyone else would have to change it. I think that the goal of a default setting is to have the fewest members have to change it.

[Gerald H]

Austria votes for UTC.

[Dieter]

(10-24-2015 05:25 PM)Katie Wasserman Wrote:  True, but how many forum members want to see the time on posts in UTC

I think all those that prefer a universal standard.

(10-24-2015 05:25 PM)Katie Wasserman Wrote:  I think only those that live in GMT+0, so everyone else would have to change it. I think that the goal of a default setting is to have the fewest members have to change it.

Sure, the default time zone may be the one that applies to the majority of users in that zone. But this changes twice a year with the switch from and to daylight savings time (in most of Europe: this weekend). Actually DST is another reason why a standard like UTC IMHO is the better option.

Let's assume that 30% of the forum members live in the UTC–8 region. If the forum's default time zone is set accordingly, these 30% get their local time displayed ...between November and March. If another 20% live in UTC–7, the best you can do is a default of UTC-7 so that about one quarter of the members gets its local time zone displayed for a period of roughly half a year... #-)

That's why I think that the basic idea is not to accomodate the largest possible number of users, but to provide a common standard time that is acceptable for every user throughout the world. I assume that most of our members will know their offset from GMT/UTC so determining their local time from UTC is trivial. Suppose you live in, say, UTC+9, and what you see is "posted 11:35 P.M.". Wouldn't you prefer something like "posted 13:35 UTC" which tells you more or less directly that this was 22:35 local time?

But maybe a poll is the best solution here.
At this moment there are already two votes for UTC. ;-)

Dieter

[rprosperi]

I'm a bit confused by this discussion. Each member can set her/his own time zone, so she/he sees local time in all posts (assuming one makes the setting).

Is the concern for non-members? If so, the voting will be done entirely by people who are not affected by the issue, so where is the concern?

[Dieter]

(10-25-2015 01:38 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  I'm a bit confused by this discussion. Each member can set her/his own time zone, so she/he sees local time in all posts (assuming one makes the setting).

Right – as soon as you log in. Which is not required if you want to browse the forums without posting something (for me: >>90% of the time I am visiting this site).

Quote:Is the concern for non-members?

No, just for all that are visiting the forums without being logged in. At this moment 13 members are logged in while 18 "guests" see date and time of a certain region in the Pacific Ocean.

Dieter

[Guenter Schink]

(10-25-2015 01:23 PM)Dieter Wrote:  ...
But maybe a poll is the best solution here.
At this moment there are already two votes for UTC. ;-)

Dieter

+1
Günter

[matthiaspaul]

(10-24-2015 05:25 PM)Katie Wasserman Wrote:  

(10-24-2015 05:16 PM)Dieter Wrote:  I do not think that UTC ist "just another time zone". It's a common standard in many areas where a universal reference for users all over the world is required. That's why there is a U in UTC. ;-) In aviation, astronomy and many internet applications UTC is the standard time zone.

True, but how many forum members want to see the time on posts in UTC, I think only those that live in GMT+0, so everyone else would have to change it. I think that the goal of a default setting is to have the fewest members have to change it.

Actually, I think the goal should be to display a ''correct'' time for everyone.

The only way to achieve this in a forum with users from all time zones is to explicitly specify the displayed time base - if that would be GMT+8 for some odd reasons, so be it, but without that being displayed people will assume either their local time or UTC... Since guest users can't change their time zone settings, the only time to be displayed correctly even without specifying it, is UTC...

Greetings,

Matthias

[matthiaspaul]

(10-25-2015 07:09 PM)Guenter Schink Wrote:  

(10-25-2015 01:23 PM)Dieter Wrote:  ...
But maybe a poll is the best solution here.
At this moment there are already two votes for UTC. ;-)

+1

I think, such a decision should be based on standards and logic, not on majorities.

However, in this case, international established standards and logic lead to UTC as well, therefore:

+1 ;-)

For the same reasons, I also second Dieter's proposal to switch the *default* date format to the internationally accepted date format yyyy-mm-dd per ISO 8601. It is easy to set up in a couple of minutes and does not negatively affect the future upgradeability of the forum software:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-461...l#pid41673

Greetings,

Matthias

[rprosperi]

(10-25-2015 01:47 PM)Dieter Wrote:  

(10-25-2015 01:38 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  I'm a bit confused by this discussion. Each member can set her/his own time zone, so she/he sees local time in all posts (assuming one makes the setting).

Right – as soon as you log in. Which is not required if you want to browse the forums without posting something (for me: >>90% of the time I am visiting this site).

Quote:Is the concern for non-members?

No, just for all that are visiting the forums without being logged in. At this moment 13 members are logged in while 18 "guests" see date and time of a certain region in the Pacific Ocean.

Dieter

Ahh, thanks for clarifying Dieter. Just set the system to auto-login, then you don't have to do anything, it will login automatically and your apparent time zone will be correct. Unless one desires to lurk for whatever reasons...

I have no strong preference how it should appear for users that don't want to login, unregistered, etc., however as I agree it should be "something logical, rather than random or popular", GMT/UTC makes more sense than any other setting.

So, I guess, 1 +

[Katie Wasserman]

I seem to be in the minority on this point. Anyway, this is entirely up to Dave as I can't change the default settings of anything in this system.

[Sylvain Cote]

+1 for UTC

[Dave Hicks]

OK the default is now GMT.

[Gerald H]

I didn't realize before reading this thread that I could change on log in to local time so the matter has proved useful for me.

Plus any doubters who believe administration is impervious to reason/democracy should take note of the result.

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

(11-19-2015 11:14 PM)Dave Hicks Wrote:  OK the default is now GMT.

Or Z. Thank you very much!

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/z