Why on earth did HP swap around the primary function keys?

[damaltor]

On my desk i have two calculators for everyday use (I am an embedded software developer). The first is a HP-16C, the best ever calculator for this purpose, though it lacks most math functions which i ocassionally need. The second is a HP-41C which holds most of my often needed programs, and which i use for any maths the 16C doesnt cope with. One day or another i will add a 15C to this, because it is similar to the 16C (and similar to use). That one will lack the alpha functions though, which are nice on the 41C.

Still, i notice i tend to open the drawer and get out a 48G to make more advanced math, because i struggle to use the 41C because the add/sub/div/mul keys are on the "wrong" side and in the "wrong" order. I simply am used to right side, / * - + and ocassionally mistype on the 41C which has left side, - + * / (which means mirrored left/right, mirrored top/bottom, and plus and minus switched).

I guess i could live with either way when using it daily, but switching between those two layouts is kinda hard - so does anyone know why the setup was changed in the first place? I guess the "new" layout is kind of standard, on other calculators too, but if HP started with the "old" layout, was there a definitive reason to switch and to make advancing to a more modern device harder? Does anyone else have this first world problem?

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(02-09-2016 11:16 AM)damaltor Wrote:  On my desk i have two calculators for everyday use (I am an embedded software developer). The first is a HP-16C, the best ever calculator for this purpose, though it lacks most math functions which i ocassionally need. The second is a HP-41C which holds most of my often needed programs, and which i use for any maths the 16C doesnt cope with. One day or another i will add a 15C to this, because it is similar to the 16C (and similar to use). That one will lack the alpha functions though, which are nice on the 41C.

Still, i notice i tend to open the drawer and get out a 48G to make more advanced math, because i struggle to use the 41C because the add/sub/div/mul keys are on the "wrong" side and in the "wrong" order. I simply am used to right side, / * - + and ocassionally mistype on the 41C which has left side, - + * / (which means mirrored left/right, mirrored top/bottom, and plus and minus switched).

I guess i could live with either way when using it daily, but switching between those two layouts is kinda hard - so does anyone know why the setup was changed in the first place? I guess the "new" layout is kind of standard, on other calculators too, but if HP started with the "old" layout, was there a definitive reason to switch and to make advancing to a more modern device harder? Does anyone else have this first world problem?

Old thread hereabout... (just one of its iterations)
You can infer my position on this theme by my tagline. ;)

[damaltor]

Gratulations

Well as said, any way makes sense for itself. Placing them under the enter key is nice. Placing them right, so that the (right) hand has not to reach as far is ok, too. especially on the landscape calculators, the left side would place them in the middle of the keypad, which would be weird. I wonder why i cannot work with both of them smoothly... and if they swapped the sides for whatever reason, why did they change the order, too??

[TASP]

psst:


user mode

[quantalume]

(02-09-2016 01:18 PM)Geir Isene Wrote:  I like how the operators are nicely placed under the ENTER key. Makes sense. But I have wondered about the "- + * /" sequence. It would make (slightly) more sense to have "+ - * /" IMO

I think HP should have either kept things the way they started out on the classics, woodstock, coconut and spice platforms (- + x /) or arranged them the way Geir suggests. It makes no sense that they've experimented with random variations starting with the voyager platform.

[damaltor]

(02-09-2016 03:08 PM)TASP Wrote:  psst:


user mode

Thought about that. But that would mean that the numbers (which are printed on the keytops) are all wrong if i switch sides, or if i just switch the function keys, their functions (which are also printed on the key tops which are hard to cover with a label) would be mixed up respective to their description. Might even make stuff harder...

(02-09-2016 06:42 PM)quantalume Wrote:  I think HP should have either kept things the way they started out on the classics, woodstock, coconut and spice platforms (- + x /) or arranged them the way Geir suggests. It makes no sense that they've experimented with random variations starting with the voyager platform.

Did they experiment? Are there more than those two said variations? That would be even worse...

[Jake Schwartz]

(02-09-2016 06:42 PM)quantalume Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 01:18 PM)Geir Isene Wrote:  I like how the operators are nicely placed under the ENTER key. Makes sense. But I have wondered about the "- + * /" sequence. It would make (slightly) more sense to have "+ - * /" IMO

I think HP should have either kept things the way they started out on the classics, woodstock, coconut and spice platforms (- + x /) or arranged them the way Geir suggests. It makes no sense that they've experimented with random variations starting with the voyager platform.

At HHC2000 in Los Angeles at the recommendation of Richard Nelson, I did a presentation on HP numeric keypads and their differences. For what it is worth, the materials for that talk are located here and here.

Jake Schwartz

[damaltor]

Thanks for sharing Jake!

[quantalume]

(02-09-2016 09:13 PM)damaltor Wrote:  Did they experiment? Are there more than those two said variations? That would be even worse...

Ok, I guess it was only two arrangements in the order, plus variations in the divide and multiply symbols.

[damaltor]

(02-09-2016 03:08 PM)TASP Wrote:  psst:


user mode

I have now tried that. I made new key labels, put them on, made everything ready, and started to ASN the function keys. worked like a charm.
after that i wanted to reassign the number keys.... which is impossible. User mode does not allow to put the number keys anywhere else.

[Ron Ross]

Well, you could infer that Hp FINALLY got it right with the Hp Prime!!! Except, the Hp Prime is actually an algebraic calculator with an RPN option! So the enter key should actually be located in the same location as the Hp 50G for its intended audience (90% of Hp Prime users probably use the Prime in algebraic mode and having the enter/equal key in the center is kind of counter intuitive).
.
However, for general RPN number crunching, it works great. It is just too large for a pocket calculator and is designed more for the student that the professional (My opinion only).
.
But it is something to consider as it has EVERYTHING and is a decent RPN calculator (it IS NOT comparable to an Hp 50G for high end use in RPN).

[damaltor]

Well, the Prime is not an alternative - first, i like the old ones, and second, it is an algebraic calculator which can use a bit of rpn - but i want an rpn calculator.

anyone else an idea to remap the number keys? i even tried making programs which do nothing but putting the number down - those could be easily mapped to the number keys, but if you press 123 then you end up with 1 in z, 2 in y, 3 in x instead of 123 in x.

[TASP]

(04-21-2016 06:38 AM)damaltor Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 03:08 PM)TASP Wrote:  psst:


user mode

I have now tried that. I made new key labels, put them on, made everything ready, and started to ASN the function keys. worked like a charm.
after that i wanted to reassign the number keys.... which is impossible. User mode does not allow to put the number keys anywhere else.

LOL, how many years I've had 41s and I didn't know the number buttons can't be reassigned.

Learn something here EVERY day.


Thanx !!

[damaltor]

yup... every function can be assigned to any key. you can even assign functions to the number keys... but as number entering is not a function, it cannot be reassigned....