Behold the WP-30S

[Gene]

Thanks to Eric for making this one (and ONLY as of now) overlay, here is the WP-30S. I think it looks great. Thanks to Sanjeev Visvanatha most of all for doing the work to get a .bin file. Thanks to the WP-34S team for doing all of the really heavy initial lifting. :-)

I used an HP 20B to make this since the overlays were black and I wanted an entirely black machine. I really like the looks.

Why the WP-30S ? Personally, I loved the idea of a fairly SIMPLE non-programmable machine and the WP-31S has continued to grow in complexity compared to the WP-30S, IMO. Just my 2 cents.

FYI... a couple of changes to the layout were made for this overlay. 1) The letters were not put on this. Since they are used to jump to menu options, Eric and I decided they were more cluttering than required. 2) A couple of abbreviations were changed. PARTS became PART for example.

What do you think?

Gene

P.S. Sanjeev... I do wish that shift CLEAR would not open up at Clear All. Is there any way to tinker with the .bin so it does not do that? :-)

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-07-2014 11:54 PM)Gene Wrote:  Thanks to Eric for making this one (and ONLY as of now) overlay, here is the WP-30S. I think it looks great. Thanks to Sanjeev Visvanatha most of all for doing the work to get a .bin file. Thanks to the WP-34S team for doing all of the really heavy initial lifting. :-)

I used an HP 20B to make this since the overlays were black and I wanted an entirely black machine. I really like the looks.

Why the WP-30S ? Personally, I loved the idea of a fairly SIMPLE non-programmable machine and the WP-31S has continued to grow in complexity compared to the WP-30S, IMO. Just my 2 cents.

FYI... a couple of changes to the layout were made for this overlay. 1) The letters were not put on this. Since they are used to jump to menu options, Eric and I decided they were more cluttering than required. 2) A couple of abbreviations were changed. PARTS became PART for example.

What do you think?

Gene

P.S. Sanjeev... I do wish that shift CLEAR would not open up at Clear All. Is there any way to tinker with the .bin so it does not do that? :-)

Ooohh! This looks nice. We can call the 30S with the codename 'Vader'

Now that you have a proper overlay, the layout looks even better to me. A few comments:

1. The inverse Trig functions do not appear correct. They should be ASIN, ACOS, ATAN or SIN^-1, etc.

2. I like the all black look, and if Alpha navigation of catalogs is not desired, I could remove that code and we could live with the overlay. Alternatively, if Alpha navigation is desired, I would modify the code to put the Alpha keys in better positions than in the current layout.

3. Yes, CLALL could be renamed to move it from first catalog position. But what would we rename it to so that it doesn't occupy the first position?

4. PART only tells a part of the story For 31S, we are using MORE. That may be better for 30S as well.

I am so glad that there was enough interest for Eric to create an overlay!

Just so you all know, 30S may get some layout updates, but nothing drastic. And behind the scenes, there is plenty to clean up.

Sanjeev

p.s. How do I get an overlay ??

EDIT - I prefer to have some Alpha labels since RCL/STO use named registers on the 30S. As well, the distributions use I, J, etc. So, my vote is to put the Alpha designators on the background overlay, in smaller non-bright fonts.

[Gene]

1) Inv Trig - you are correct unless there is a very tiny -1 by them. Fortunately, the convention is so strong for that they *ought* to do, that I had not even looked closely. :-)

2) Re: Alpha - we were trying to avoid having to put anything on the faceplate and to make use of the 20b black background. It would be more noticeable on the 30b of course. What letters are used beyond the 2nd row for registers? Easy enough to put something on this to show those letters.

3) PART to MORE works fine too. Small change to the overlay.

4) What would CL_ALL do in the catalog ?

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 01:56 AM)Gene Wrote:  2) Re: Alpha - we were trying to avoid having to put anything on the faceplate and to make use of the 20b black background. It would be more noticeable on the 30b of course. What letters are used beyond the 2nd row for registers? Easy enough to put something on this to show those letters.

Lettered registers in use are ABCD XYZT IJKL (L doesn't need to have keyboard access at all due to Last x.)

(03-08-2014 01:56 AM)Gene Wrote:  4) What would CL_ALL do in the catalog ?

That would move CL_ALL to after CLREGS.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

In terms of the Alpha labels, please see proposed layout below. It still accommodates full alphabet for catalog navigation, and also allows for lettered registers.

   

[walter b]

Very clean layout indeed. Just a few questions, thoughts, and remarks (in random order) in addition to Sanjeev's:

• What's in your menus? Especially in PART? A link to the post containing the currently valid definition would do.
• I'd vote for MORE instead of PART, too. PART tells me nothing. YMMV
• A primary CONV clearly designates this as a product for the North American market
• How many registers are supported?
• I question the sensibility of VIEW on a non-programmable.
• Some alpha support will be inevitable for register access. It will be very helpful in CONV and CONST. I'd suggest printing those letters in grey.
• I'd put HYP where R[^] is now.
• I miss ON (well, I know where it should be printed, but nevertheless ... )
  

Anyway, enjoy your baby!

d:-)

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 09:30 AM)walter b Wrote:  Very clean layout indeed. Just a few questions, thoughts, and remarks (in random order) in addition to Sanjeev's:

• What's in your menus? Especially in PART? A link to the post containing the currently valid definition would do.
• I'd vote for MORE instead of PART, too. PART tells me nothing. YMMV
• A primary CONV clearly designates this as a product for the North American market
• How many registers are supported?
• I question the sensibility of VIEW on a non-programmable.
• Some alpha support will be inevitable for register access. It will be very helpful in CONV and CONST. I'd suggest printing those letters in grey.
• I'd put HYP where R[^] is now.
• I miss ON (well, I know where it should be printed, but nevertheless ... )
  

Anyway, enjoy your baby!

d:-)

Current layout is in the 30S thread at this post:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-565...ml#pid4431

There was no attempt at changing register count, so it is as on 34S.

As the 30S was a personal playground, I now see it becoming an alternate layout of the 31S. So you might see some effort after 31S is complete to #define things a bit differently on 30S.

[Thomas Radtke]

Too bad I gave away my 20b ;-).

One question, one remark:

Who uses SCI when there's ENG?

CONST could contain PI as first entry.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 12:11 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Too bad I gave away my 20b ;-).

One question, one remark:

Who uses SCI when there's ENG?

CONST could contain PI as first entry.

Many older HP Scientifics had both SCI and ENG, which was my inspiration.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

So, 30S uses many of the same primary keys as 30B in the numeric area. An obvious proposition for minimal transformation would be to print Shifted function labels in this area only, using similar blue colour as 30B. Full key labels on the upper half of the keyboard and other spots where both Primary and Shifted functions differ from 30B.

Compare layouts of the 30B and 30S:



As for Alpha labels, a transparent row with printed Letters could be placed beneath each row requiring them. Of course, you need to obscure "Black S".

Thoughts?

[walter b]

(03-08-2014 12:11 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Who uses SCI when there's ENG?

Not everyone is an ENGineer - there still are some true SCIentists even nowadays

d:-)

[Eric Rechlin]

A few things:

1. I couldn't make up my mind whether to do something like SIN-1 or ASIN, and in the end I completely forgot to do anything before I made Gene's stickers. The original WP 30S graphic had ASIN; the WP 34S has SIN-1. Thoughts? If there's no consensus I will do ASIN.

2. I really don't want to do an overlay other than the key button stickers. Part of the beauty of the 30S is that you don't need the faceplate overlay, because it's so simple. And when put on a 30b, you don't have the contrasting black color of the overlay with the silver faceplate, so it looks nicer (yes, I realize you still have the "Black S" label to ignore). Also, applying the overlay is a real pain, and it's hard to fix if you don't get it exactly right the moment the sticker touches the faceplate. Just using the key stickers makes it far, far easier to install. I guess it's possible to list the alpha keys on the key stickers, but they would be small and cramped and I don't advise it. If the 30S is fully usable without alpha keys, I suggest avoiding them altogether.

3. I'll change PART to MORE.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 03:33 PM)walter b Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 12:11 PM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  Who uses SCI when there's ENG?

Not everyone is an ENGineer - there still are some true SCIentists even nowadays

d:-)

And some ENGineers prefer SCIentific notation in this day and age as well

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 04:03 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  A few things:

1. I couldn't make up my mind whether to do something like SIN-1 or ASIN, and in the end I completely forgot to do anything before I made Gene's stickers. The original WP 30S graphic had ASIN; the WP 34S has SIN-1. Thoughts? If there's no consensus I will do ASIN.

2. I really don't want to do an overlay other than the key button stickers. Part of the beauty of the 30S is that you don't need the faceplate overlay, because it's so simple. And when put on a 30b, you don't have the contrasting black color of the overlay with the silver faceplate, so it looks nicer (yes, I realize you still have the "Black S" label to ignore). Also, applying the overlay is a real pain, and it's hard to fix if you don't get it exactly right the moment the sticker touches the faceplate. Just using the key stickers makes it far, far easier to install. I guess it's possible to list the alpha keys on the key stickers, but they would be small and cramped and I don't advise it. If the 30S is fully usable without alpha keys, I suggest avoiding them altogether.

3. I'll change PART to MORE.

1. I like ASIN

2. I agree that a faceplate overlay may not be needed, but I don't believe that the 30S as specified is usable without Alpha keys for at least ABCD XYZT IJK defined on the keyboard. This is for stack manipulation and distributions. Perhaps at least those letters can be printed on very small labels and placed under or next to (like HP 32s) the appropriate key? Catalog navigation with letters will not be used then.

[walter b]

How about making strips with the letters (and ON) printed on them? Would be easier to apply than tiny individual letter labels IMHO.

d:-)

[Eric Rechlin]

Sanjeev,

I don't like the idea of small labels next to the keys, because they will not be easy to install, and due to their small size will almost certainly look crooked. Maybe putting small letters on select keys (such as the ABCDIJKTXYZ that you propose) may work best. I'd like to see the alpha layout finalized before I do this, though, as I know this has changed a couple times now.

But still, to me the 30S is most useful as a simple scientific calculator. Letters should not be necessary on such a calculator. The 31S is (perhaps unfortunately) going in a direction of greater complexity, where letters seem to make more sense.

Gene got one because I had his address. If you send me your address I'll make sure to send you one from the next revision.

[Mark Hardman]

(03-08-2014 09:03 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  I don't like the idea of small labels next to the keys, because they will not be easy to install, and due to their small size will almost certainly look crooked.

Might I suggest a small stylized "alpha keyboard" sticker that could be applied to the back of the calculator (à la HP-41)?

Mark Hardman

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 08:48 PM)walter b Wrote:  How about making strips with the letters (and ON) printed on them? Would be easier to apply than tiny individual letter labels IMHO.

d:-)

Yes, this is a good suggestion if we need the Alpha labels. I am rethinking 30S at the moment based upon comments here to make it simpler than 31S.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 09:03 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  Sanjeev,

I don't like the idea of small labels next to the keys, because they will not be easy to install, and due to their small size will almost certainly look crooked. Maybe putting small letters on select keys (such as the ABCDIJKTXYZ that you propose) may work best. I'd like to see the alpha layout finalized before I do this, though, as I know this has changed a couple times now.

But still, to me the 30S is most useful as a simple scientific calculator. Letters should not be necessary on such a calculator. The 31S is (perhaps unfortunately) going in a direction of greater complexity, where letters seem to make more sense.

Gene got one because I had his address. If you send me your address I'll make sure to send you one from the next revision.

Eric - Thank you for the kind offer of the overlay. I think 30S needs a bit of work on the layout, to meet the needs of being simpler than 31S. If Alpha labels are not wanted, then we can get rid of catalog navigation, and also accessing stack and lettered registers. The one thing this will do, however, is throw a wrench in accessing most distributions. But, that may be OK, cause if you want distributions you can graduate to the 31S.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(03-08-2014 09:27 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 09:03 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  I don't like the idea of small labels next to the keys, because they will not be easy to install, and due to their small size will almost certainly look crooked.

Might I suggest a small stylized "alpha keyboard" sticker that could be applied to the back of the calculator (à la HP-41)?

Mark Hardman

Hmmm..... This would also work.