HP Prime or HP 50g

[HP67]

(03-23-2014 02:03 AM)John R. Graham Wrote:  I don't use HIST that much so I've assigned that key to execute SWAP. It works like it should: 0 1 HIST (now SWAP) leaves you with 1 0 on the stack. No extra keystrokes.

Yes. HIST seems like a waste of an unshifted key. I miss having the stack menu available like it was on the 48 so I reassigned mine too. STACK was shifted on the 48 but at least it was there! MODE ought to have been shifted too, I use it from a cold start and then never again.

While we're at it, I would have preferred APPS to pull up a soft menu instead of the choose boxes especially when the system is set to soft menus. Soft menus are so nice, and choose boxes are so slow and awkward. Is there any way to get the APPS to work as soft menus?

[Joe Horn]

Quote:I don't use HIST that much so I've assigned that key to execute SWAP.

I assigned UNDO to HIST. UNDO in one keystroke is sweet. Here's the assignment:

:: TakeOver :: % -41.3 FPTR 6 255 ; ;

Quote:I miss having the stack menu available like it was on the 48 so I reassigned mine too. STACK was shifted on the 48 but at least it was there!

My APPS key toggles between the stack menu (menu 73) and the Library 256 menu, both of which I use extensively while programming. Here's the assignment (inner program is 100% User RPL):

:: TakeOver :: IF RCLMENU IP 73. SAME THEN 256. ELSE 73. END TMENU ; ;

Quote:Is there any way to get the APPS to work as soft menus?

Unfortunately, no. But the APPS code is in FPTR 2 80, if you wish to Nosy it and create your own soft-menu version.

[HP67]

Thank you very much, Joe! I'm relatively new with the 48 and new to the 50g so I don't think I understood anything of the code you showed.

I will guess from the :: that it is Sys RPL? Does that mean the 50g can process Sys RPL directly without doing anything other than wrapping it in :: ;

I'll put the Nosy reference on my mental stack and try to figure that out also.

[John Colvin]

(03-24-2014 01:07 AM)Arcturus314 Wrote:  

(03-24-2014 12:26 AM)John Colvin Wrote:  I own both the 50G and Prime and in my opinion, the keyboard on the 50G is just
as good as the Prime as far as tactile feedback. The 50G keyboard has
better contrasting color schemes than the Prime which is important for me in
low lighting conditions.

Ok I think you might have persuaded me. I'll trade my Prime for a 50G. Are the keys hinged like the Prime or straight press like TI calcs?

The HP50 keys are hinged.

[Arcturus314]

Just bought a 50g. Keeping my prime though, it has awesome hardware.

[Joe Horn]

Please pardon the non-Prime direction of this discussion.

(03-24-2014 03:56 PM)HP67 Wrote:  Thank you very much, Joe! I'm relatively new with the 48 and new to the 50g so I don't think I understood anything of the code you showed.

I will guess from the :: that it is Sys RPL?

Correct. All System RPL programs begin with "::" and end with ";".

Quote:Does that mean the 50g can process Sys RPL directly without doing anything other than wrapping it in :: ;

Yes! Well, almost. If you install and attach the "extable" library, and attach the built-in Library 256 (just set flag -86; thereafter Library 256 will auto-attach at every warmstart), then your 50g will be able to assemble and disassemble System RPL natively. IMHO, a good way to learn System RPL is to put a small User RPL program on the stack, execute the →S2 command, and examine the disassembled System RPL result. Modify it, then execute ASM to re-assemble it into System RPL. This will give you a good feel for what does and doesn't work. It will also cause a lot of memory clears, so be sure to backup your machine to SD card regularly!

The "@" by itself as the final line of System RPL source code string is mandatory. Nobody knows why.

Quote:I'll put the Nosy reference on my mental stack and try to figure that out also.

Nosy is the best tool available for learning System RPL and Saturn Assembly Language. It's better than pizza. Almost as thrilling as wingsuit flying, but considerably less dangerous.

[HP67]

Joe, thank you very much for the help.

You may have answered the question I intended to ask but rereading my post I don't think I was clear. I realize the 50g has onboard MASD support and can do all sorts of great stuff. Looking at your example line of code that is in Sys RPL, I was wondering: can we type in :: blah ; and expect it the calculator to compile it automagically just like it does with User RPL code bracketed with << >> or do we have to use some MASD magic commands to compile it?

I think from your comments about S2-> and ASM that I would have to put the Sys RPL code on the stack and then execute ASM, not that the device automagically processes the Sys RPL with no further intervention after seeing the :: blah ;

I will try this as soon as I can of course but I figured I would ask now because it will be a little while longer until I can go over the Sys RPL doc enough to try my hand at writing some code. I have some User RPL code that takes a while to run and I have a lot of reading ahead of me before I can decide if I should do it in Saturn or Sys RPL.

[Han]

(03-25-2014 05:10 AM)Joe Horn Wrote:  Nosy is the best tool available for learning System RPL and Saturn Assembly Language. It's better than pizza. Almost as thrilling as wingsuit flying, but considerably less dangerous.

I have to disagree with Joe on the "best tool" (though I am a bit biased because of the energy devoted to updating Jazz) because Nosy is outdated and does not know how to handle the new opcodes introduced in the emulated Saturn. If you want to do some peaking into Saturn Assembly (SASM), Jazz is a much better tool for that. Nosy does a terrible job of disassembling SASM (though its SysRPL dissassembly is very nice, esp. with respect to the hidden flash pages).

Moreover, Jazz's code viewer can interact with SDIAG and be able to pull up stack diagrams for the named entries. Just make sure to save the SDIAG info onto your SD card.

[HP67]

Thanks, I have read very positive comments about Jazz. It's great having you on the forum. I will definitely look into it when I get to the point of looking into Saturn.

Is it possible to assemble on the 50g for 48S and G targets?

[Han]

(03-25-2014 04:57 PM)HP67 Wrote:  Thanks, I have read very positive comments about Jazz. It's great having you on the forum. I will definitely look into it when I get to the point of looking into Saturn.

Is it possible to assemble on the 50g for 48S and G targets?

It is possible, but you will need to have a modified extable -- this is the entries table used by Jazz, MASD, Nosy, and similar libraries. The one that comes with Jazz is built for the 49/50 series. You can look at the Jazz source files and check the extable directory to see that the only modification really needed is to swap the embedded entries table for the 49/50 series for the 48 series.

[HP67]

Thanks. That's what I suspected. Since I don't have enough memory on my 48s I'll need to cross assemble. This will be really nice!

[Joe Horn]

(03-25-2014 04:52 PM)Han Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 05:10 AM)Joe Horn Wrote:  Nosy is the best tool available for learning System RPL and Saturn Assembly Language. It's better than pizza. Almost as thrilling as wingsuit flying, but considerably less dangerous.

I have to disagree with Joe on the "best tool" (though I am a bit biased because of the energy devoted to updating Jazz) because Nosy is outdated and does not know how to handle the new opcodes introduced in the emulated Saturn. If you want to do some peaking into Saturn Assembly (SASM), Jazz is a much better tool for that. Nosy does a terrible job of disassembling SASM (though its SysRPL dissassembly is very nice, esp. with respect to the hidden flash pages).

Moreover, Jazz's code viewer can interact with SDIAG and be able to pull up stack diagrams for the named entries. Just make sure to save the SDIAG info onto your SD card.

I didn't recommend Jazz because I haven't used it since its HP-48 heyday. I was under the false impression that its 50g incarnation was just a direct port from the 48. Thanks for the recommendation, Han! I'll give it a try.

[Joe Horn]

(03-25-2014 04:06 PM)HP67 Wrote:  Looking at your example line of code that is in Sys RPL, I was wondering: can we type in :: blah ; and expect it the calculator to compile it automagically just like it does with User RPL code bracketed with << >> or do we have to use some MASD magic commands to compile it?

I think from your comments about S2-> and ASM that I would have to put the Sys RPL code on the stack and then execute ASM, not that the device automagically processes the Sys RPL with no further intervention after seeing the :: blah ;

Correct: it takes two steps instead of one. You type the whole System RPL program's source code into a string, and then you "assemble" the string into a System RPL program using the ASM command. Conversely, if you want to edit the program, you disassemble it back into a string, edit the string, then assemble it with ASM again. Same basic idea for any non-user-RPL object.

Interesting factoid: If you have the extable library installed, and you set flag -85, then objects on the stack will be displayed in "System RPL display mode". It will SEEM like they are being disassembled on the stack, but they're not; it's just a useful display fiction. The object remains unchanged on the stack. Example: put << 1. 2. + >> on the stack, set flag -85, and you'll see the program displayed as:

:: x<< %1 %2 x+ x>> ;

I find that useful enough to have a key assignment that toggles flag -85. But remember, if you actually want to edit it in System RPL, you have to disassemble it into a string, edit the string, and re-assemble it again. Flag -85 is just for taking a quick peek at the System RPL source code of objects.

[HP67]

Thanks for taking the time to explain all this, Joe. This sounds great!

[jebem]

(03-18-2014 09:41 PM)Voldemar Wrote:  Thank You for fast answer. I have HP 35s. This is my everyday calculator. I really like it (RPN), but now I am looking for graphic calculator. There is very small choise of graphic RPN calculators. I have tried emulators of Prime and 50g. You are right, Prime emulator is better. I am confused, that RPN is possible only in home mode on the Prime. How about programming on Prime. I like programming on my 35s. Is it similar on Prime too?

Coming back to the original post question...
As others have commented, if you enjoy your 35S (as I do, by the way, and I also have an HP-50G and a HP-Prime), why not considering the open source WP-34S project ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/wp34s/ ) ?

There are plenty of information on how to re-purpose one HP-30B yourself, or you may just buy one ready made from http://commerce.hpcalc.org for instance.

The WP-34S does all that an HP-42S can do and more, and the move from the 35S to the 34S will not be so hard than moving to a HP-50G.

I am preparing myself to re-purpose one HP-30B with the WP-34S firmware, as I do not want to miss this opportunity to acquire this unique calculator in my collection.

[Frozen North]

The HP Prime or HP-50g?

After a long and careful deliberation, I bought one of each.

My thought is that the Prime is still in a late beta test phase. If one is willing to accept the need for a few updates and has faith that HP will provide such, then the Prime is the way to go.

Can the Prime beat the TI-83 and its descendants? The answer to this has little to do with price or feature set, but rather the willingness on the part of HP to provide the range of secondary products and support needed by students and their instructors.

I recently spent a big chunk of time reviewing high end graphing calculators as I needed to get one for a friend's daughter who will soon be taking the college board exams. I finally decided on getting a TI-84 C Plus Silver -- a sort of juiced-up TI-83 with a color screen. While I would have preferred to bring another RPN convert into the fold, it would have been difficult to provide the appropriate mentoring when the student and I are separated by about 5,000 km.

[Angus]

You have bought the prime regardless of doubts about its current usability for your needs. That seems to take pressure from HP to refine it I would say. ;-)
At least the sales guys' logic implies: selling numbers are ok - everything is good.

Putting sarcasm aside, yes, we prime users are looking forward to getting improved software and so far I'm sure some aspects will be changed.
I would bet though that a major rework won't happen. Looking at Tim's post about cas decisions show that time/cost HAS been a major aspect when hp decided what to develop and therefore will, of course, dictate their proceeding.
A totally new calculator after years could also be an issue for people who arranged themselves with the old device and are used to it.

It is said above the prime is not at all perfect, but has strengths and a lot of potential, so refining the firmware, fixing bugs, improving workflow and putting effords in its documentation(!) will do the job. One person mentioned in an other thread that HP stands for high performant, well engineered devices which is a reputation they won't easily risk to loose, so maybe they even consider such aspects.

I would choose the prime if my usage is more cas centric or fun oriented (and hope the best for the future) and maybe the hp50 if I do vastly numeric calculations or have old software I need to use.
However If I was a teacher I would rather wait for the future and what is there to come. Easy transfer of formulas and data between the different modes and apps would definitly have a larger influence on my decision to introduce the prime than e.g. an explorer app. Call me conservative but mindless number changing doesn't -teach- anything. That is the teacher's job. Pen and paper works better than the app miracle. But I am no teacher so I cannot say or advise what I would go for if I were one.

[dbbotkin]

Is there any truth to the rumor that HP's calculator division may be sold to Keysight Technologies (http://www.keysight.com)? They are the meter and instrument group from "old HP" that was spun out into Agilent who subsequently spun them out in 2013-14.

If the rumor has any validity, it would be like old times at HP once again.

D

[mlpalacios8]

I'm currently studying electromechanical engineering and I have both calculators, 50g and HP Prime.

I love both calculators...

I had the 50g first and learned RPN + it's programming language.
Then I bought the HP Prime. I ditched the 50g for a small period of time... Then I picked it back up and ditched the Prime.
Then I took the Prime again and now I'm using both calculators.


-For my Circuits 1 class I use the 50g because thanks to it's overall RPN system, I can do number-crunching more efficiently, especially if implementing short, numeric programs.

-For "upper Calculus" (many names for it, Laplace, Fourier, Z Tranformation etc...) I use the HP Prime. It's CAS engine is wayyyy stronger than the 50 g. I can easily manipulate big CAS functions and play with them really fast. The screen and touchscreen here helps a LOT. Much better than the 50g for medium-big CAS functions/equations.

-For Physics III (waves, etc) I use my 50 g. Why? Again the RPN. Put the "sin(2*pi)" in Prime's RPN and you will not get 0... That stops all my Physics III number crunching and other bunch of stuff. There's an old thread on this matter.

-Electromagnetic Fields, my favorite class, I use the Prime... I just can't imagine myself using the 50g for doing big triple integrals and hardcore vector calculus in different coordinate systems. I easily and rapidly programmed all my spherical/cylindrical divergences, gradients, curls, laplacians and more in the Prime (had to use cas programming). Not to mention again that the equation handling in the Prime is smoother than in the 50g.

The 50g programming triumphs in short, efficient programs.
The Prime programming triumphs in medium to big programs. The programming logic flows better in the Prime because it shares many attributes with other programming languages.

I give roundhouse kicks to all my texas instruments classmates.. Can't touch my 50g/Prime combo.

[Craig Thomas]

Keep in mind that the Prime of today is all there may be. No future updates or improvements.

Hp IS on the verge of laying off 50,000 or more people, according to the latest news.