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Dave Frederickson · 07-10-2017, 05:45 PM

(07-08-2017 12:43 PM)cruff Wrote:
(07-06-2017 04:24 PM)smp Wrote: I came across this interesting device:

http://prologix.biz/gpib-usb-controller.html
At $149, at least it is an available device e supported by the company that sells it. However, it seems to be designed to plug onto a piece of test equipment and then a modern computer will control the instrument from its USB port. I'm not so sure if it works the other way around, with the HP-86B being the controller.

I have one of these, and yes, it can run in either controller mode or device mode. However, it is essentially just an HPIB to USB serial converter, handling the details of the HPIB bus transactions. The device attached to the USB side has to provide the smarts to either act as the controller or as a device from the HPIB data payload point of view. I believe the manual should be readily available on the Prologix web site if you are interested in the details on how it works. I've used mine to transfer data to/from my 71b using the HP IB-IL converter.

It doesn't look like this can be used to connect a USB printer to an HP-IB port. Connection to a USB device is not mentioned in the specs and it has a Type B connector which is found on the printer end of the cable, not the controller end.

Dave

Paul Berger (Canada) · 07-10-2017, 06:35 PM

(07-10-2017 05:45 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: It doesn't look like this can be used to connect a USB printer to an HP-IB port. Connection to a USB device is not mentioned in the specs and it has a Type B connector which is found on the printer end of the cable, not the controller end.

Dave

That would be my take as well, for device mode you still need a host system to initialize the adapter and set the mode of operation, I suppose it could function like PIL-Box for GPIB.

Paul.

Dave Frederickson · 07-10-2017, 07:00 PM

(07-10-2017 06:35 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:
(07-10-2017 05:45 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: It doesn't look like this can be used to connect a USB printer to an HP-IB port. Connection to a USB device is not mentioned in the specs and it has a Type B connector which is found on the printer end of the cable, not the controller end.

That would be my take as well, for device mode you still need a host system to initialize the adapter and set the mode of operation, I suppose it could function like PIL-Box for GPIB.

Almost. The PIL-Box can have a device or controller on either side.

smp · 07-10-2017, 07:32 PM

(07-10-2017 07:00 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:
(07-10-2017 06:35 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote: That would be my take as well, for device mode you still need a host system to initialize the adapter and set the mode of operation, I suppose it could function like PIL-Box for GPIB.
Almost. The PIL-Box can have a device or controller on either side.

So, it appears that the least expensive option for me so far is to purchase the HP-IL Module from 360-Tech for $69, and use that to attach to my PIL-Box and pyILPER on my Mac. I should be able to print to the pyILPER printer screen and cut and paste the text from there.

Unless I want to take a risk on a $25 2225A from TAS...

smp

**rprosperi** · 07-10-2017, 07:38 PM

(07-10-2017 07:32 PM)smp Wrote: So, it appears that the least expensive option for me so far is to purchase the HP-IL Module from 360-Tech for $69, and use that to attach to my PIL-Box and pyILPER on my Mac. I should be able to print to the pyILPER printer screen and cut and paste the text from there.

Probably best to send an email to JFG to confirm the PIL-Box can work in this mode. HP-IL has lots of subtleties and it's possible this kind of usage is not supported. Be sure to let him know the firmware rev you have (label on the chip inside).

Dave Frederickson · 07-10-2017, 07:57 PM

(07-10-2017 07:38 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(07-10-2017 07:32 PM)smp Wrote: So, it appears that the least expensive option for me so far is to purchase the HP-IL Module from 360-Tech for $69, and use that to attach to my PIL-Box and pyILPER on my Mac. I should be able to print to the pyILPER printer screen and cut and paste the text from there.

Probably best to send an email to JFG to confirm the PIL-Box can work in this mode. HP-IL has lots of subtleties and it's possible this kind of usage is not supported. Be sure to let him know the firmware rev you have (label on the chip inside).

If you doubt my suggestion will work you could always try it and see. Smile

smp's PIL-Box was upgraded last month. Smile

smp · 07-10-2017, 08:56 PM

(07-10-2017 07:38 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Probably best to send an email to JFG to confirm the PIL-Box can work in this mode. HP-IL has lots of subtleties and it's possible this kind of usage is not supported. Be sure to let him know the firmware rev you have (label on the chip inside).

Hi Bob,

Thanks. Indeed I had revision 1.4 in my PIL-Box, and I upgraded it with 2.1 purchased from J-F a while ago. Since I'm on the latest revision (in order to connect my HP-71B and use my Mac as the keyboard and display) I am assuming that any talker on the line would be able to send something to the printer, right?

You're right though. It never hurts to get confirmation from J-F when I'm about to spend money to try something new. 8-)

smp

cruff · 07-11-2017, 12:21 AM

(07-10-2017 06:35 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote: That would be my take as well, for device mode you still need a host system to initialize the adapter and set the mode of operation, I suppose it could function like PIL-Box for GPIB.

Because the USB serial interface uses inband commands, you would need some minimal intelligence to manage the device mode operation. This would include character escaping, similar to what you needed to do for AT-command set modems, but a small microcontroller would suffice.

**rprosperi** · 07-11-2017, 12:58 AM

(07-10-2017 07:57 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: If you doubt my suggestion will work you could always try it and see. smp's PIL-Box was upgraded last month.

I don't doubt this specifically, just think it's better to check. JFG has stated many times that the PIL-Box (and associated IL-Per flavors from various authors) was designed to be used as a peripheral for use with PCs and not all HP-IL modes and features are included. He knows which are/aren't; I;m certain I'll die before knowing such details, but happy as a clam using it the way it was intended.

(07-10-2017 08:56 PM)smp Wrote: You're right though. It never hurts to get confirmation from J-F when I'm about to spend money to try something new. 8-)

Exactly. An email is free, and likely answered within a day. $69 plus ship plus weeks of time is a lot to risk (IMHO) if the simple answer is "no, it won't work because xyz..."

J-F Garnier · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2017 08:14 AM by J-F Garnier.)

(07-11-2017 12:58 AM)rprosperi Wrote:
(07-10-2017 07:57 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: If you doubt my suggestion will work you could always try it and see. smp's PIL-Box was upgraded last month.
I don't doubt this specifically, just think it's better to check.

I didn't try to the PIL-Box/ILPer with a HP series 80 computer, but I don't see any reason why it would not work. The PIL-Box/ILPer act as standard HP-IL devices.
As reported several times, the HP series 80 don't support the HP-IL mass storage, so the virtual mass storage will be of no use.
So only the printing feature to the printer window, and the data import/export feature with the DOSLINK device will work.

Quote:JFG has stated many times that the PIL-Box (and associated IL-Per flavors from various authors) was designed to be used as a peripheral for use with PCs and not all HP-IL modes and features are included. He knows which are/aren't; I;m certain I'll die before knowing such details, but happy as a clam using it the way it was intended.

In the past, the main limitations had to do with the HP-IL Service Requests. This has been overcome with revision 1.6 (and later), for instance for use with the HP-IL remote keyboard in pyILPER.
It may still be some limitations with esoteric HP-IL modes such as EAR (Enable Asynchronous Request), but this is very marginal as hardy used in real conditions and I didn't check the functionality explicitly.

Actually I have a HP85 with HP-IL interface, but I didn't start it since several years.
Is there someone with a ready-to-use HP series 80 with HP-IL and a PIL-Box to try?
Basically, the test is:
PRINTER IS 901
PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
I'm not an expert in the series 80, maybe something equivalent to the HP71's RESTORE IO is needed first, RESET 9 maybe ?

J-F

Added: Use "PRINTER IS 901" with the regular ILPer. pyILPER may use an other HP-IL address for the printer emulation.

**rprosperi** · 07-11-2017, 02:56 PM

(07-11-2017 07:56 AM)J-F Garnier Wrote: I didn't try to the PIL-Box/ILPer with a HP series 80 computer, but I don't see any reason why it would not work. The PIL-Box/ILPer act as standard HP-IL devices.
...
Basically, the test is:
PRINTER IS 901
PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
I'm not an expert in the series 80, maybe something equivalent to the HP71's RESTORE IO is needed first, RESET 9 maybe ?

Thanks for your comments Jean-Francois; encouraged by your comments, I've done some quick testing.

HP-87XM. 82938A, I/O ROM, (+ other ROMs)

Unfortunately the result (including trying RESET 9 first) of the PRINT statement is:

Error 114 :

According to the 82938A manual, this is "Not Active Controller - The statement executed requires the interface to be active controller."

I must add that I've never used this HP-IL Interface before now, however it was purchased as "working, no problems".

I have verified the 82938A interface is configured for Select Code 9, and that the 87 "sees" the board and the select code setting of 9 (thanks to Martin Heperle's useful 86UTILS programs)

The manual includes a program to verify operation of the interface, however this little 'test' program (pp 13-15) is over 100 lines of detailed code and I don't have the time to enter it today.

Other suggestions are welcome, I'll leave the setup as-is for a day or so.

Martin Hepperle · 07-11-2017, 03:36 PM

... there is a DIP Switch on the HP-IL interface board which allows you to set the board to be a System Controller or not ... RTFM ...
Maybe yours is set to not be the loop controller.
Martin

**rprosperi** · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2017 07:27 PM by rprosperi.)

(07-11-2017 03:36 PM)Martin Hepperle Wrote: ... there is a DIP Switch on the HP-IL interface board which allows you to set the board to be a System Controller or not ... RTFM ...

RTFM Indeed!

This was exactly the problem; once enabling Controller mode on the 82838A, printed output is seen in the IL-Per window (I'm using V2.23 from Christoph)

I've not done extensive testing but PRINT statements, PLIST, etc. all seem to work fine, I can see no reason other standard PRINT-ed output would behave differently.

The ironic thing is I examined the dip-switch before initial testing to ensure the select code was default (9). I saw the controller switch setting but simply presumed it was on the default setting (i.e. Controller ON). The label inside the case identifies the role of the individual switches, but not the effect of the setting.

@SMP - Go for it, it works fine.

@Martin Hepperle - Thanks for the firm prod!

@Dave Frederickson - Thanks for the suggestion

@JFG - Thanks for the comments. And for the PIL-Box. Again.

This is really great news as this is by far the easiest method of getting text (program listings, program output, data, etc.) out of the HP-80 series and into one's PC.

If only the other direction were as easy...

@JFG - Would you expect DOSLINK to work for copying in a test file from the PC? Of course a program would be needed to read input from device 904, but I don't know how IL-Per would control flow of the file data once initiated?

Update: Additional testing has verified capture of program output as well. By simply changing the Printer device 710 -> 901 in Martin's SYSINV program and toggling output to printer, all output was indeed sent to IL-Per and captured.

A sample of the captured data is attached in a text file COPY/PASTEd from the IL-Per client window

Dave Frederickson · 07-11-2017, 07:12 PM

(07-11-2017 07:08 PM)rprosperi Wrote: @JFG - Would you expect DOSLINK to work for copying in a test file from the PC? Of course a program would be needed to read input from device 904, but I don't know how IL-Per would control flow of the file data once initiated?

I'm not J-F, but copying a file is a mass storage operation, which is not supported.

**rprosperi** · 07-11-2017, 07:23 PM

(07-11-2017 07:12 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: I'm not J-F, but copying a file is a mass storage operation, which is not supported.

Actually it's not, DOSBOX is a different kid of device (e.g. :Ix on HP-75, not :Mx) I believe some kind of I/O device? Mass Storage Operations would entail implementation of the DISK/TAPE protocols, clearly not supported.

Still, like you, I'm doubtful, but also hopeful.

J-F Garnier · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2017 07:42 PM by J-F Garnier.)

(07-11-2017 07:08 PM)rprosperi Wrote: @JFG - Would you expect DOSLINK to work for copying in a test file from the PC? Of course a program would be needed to read input from device 904, but I don't know how IL-Per would control flow of the file data once initiated?

The same methods than I proposed for the HP71 can probably work with a HP series 80, see slide 4 of this presentation.
I wonder if it could be possible to save the text data read from DOSLINK into an ASCII file on a disc, and then load this file as a program with GET. This would be an equivalent of the TRANSFORM feature of the HP71/75 to load program from text files. Need a HP series 80 expert here :-)

J-F

**rprosperi** · 07-11-2017, 07:58 PM

(07-11-2017 07:33 PM)J-F Garnier Wrote: The same methods than I proposed for the HP71 can probably work with a HP series 80, see slide 4 of this presentation.
I wonder if it could be possible to save the text data read from DOSLINK into an ASCII file on a disc, and then load this file as a program with GET. This would be an equivalent of the TRANSFORM feature of the HP71/75 to load program from text files. Need a HP series 80 expert here :-)

Thanks, so it's at least feasible and not too hard to try.

How does the DOSLINK device control the flow of file data it sends to the loop? e.g. does it send it line by line ("line" here meaning text up to the endline character) or just a steady stream of file bytes? The sample program is oriented around getting 'lines' of text up to 120 characters, so I'm not sure how it would handle a continuous stream, or a binary file (which on 71B, can be transferred from DOSFILE without problem).

I need to look up the line terminator character(s) for HP-80 text files - odds are this is different than the 71B or 75C formats; it seems this is something HP invented anew for each series of computers....

J-F Garnier · 07-11-2017, 08:06 PM

(07-11-2017 07:58 PM)rprosperi Wrote: How does the DOSLINK device control the flow of file data it sends to the loop? e.g. does it send it line by line ("line" here meaning text up to the endline character) or just a steady stream of file bytes? The sample program is oriented around getting 'lines' of text up to 120 characters, so I'm not sure how it would handle a continuous stream, or a binary file (which on 71B, can be transferred from DOSFILE without problem).

DOSLINK acts as an interface, providing bytes to the loop when asked by the controller.
The problem of the end-of-data must be managed explicitly by program, either using an EOF mark (as I proposed), or using some kind of ON ERROR trap.
For binary data, OUTPUTing to the PC is no problem. ENTERing must know the exact format of the expected data and end-of-data.
ASCII (text) file are the most convenient way to exchange data with a PC.

J-F

Dave Frederickson · 07-11-2017, 08:57 PM

(07-11-2017 07:23 PM)rprosperi Wrote:
(07-11-2017 07:12 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: I'm not J-F, but copying a file is a mass storage operation, which is not supported.
Actually it's not, DOSBOX is a different kid of device (e.g. :Ix on HP-75, not :Mx) I believe some kind of I/O device?

My point is that DOSLINK uses the COPY command which is not supported by the 82938A. You can use the OUTPUT, ENTER, and TRANSFER commands for transferring data, but I don't know if DOSLINK will work with those.

The 82938A HP-IL test is attached.

Dave

**rprosperi** · 07-11-2017, 09:40 PM

(07-11-2017 08:57 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote: My point is that DOSLINK uses the COPY command which is not supported by the 82938A. You can use the OUTPUT, ENTER, and TRANSFER commands for transferring data, but I don't know if DOSLINK will work with those.

The 82938A HP-IL test is attached.

Yeah, if making a point about something, you'd think I use the right name. DOSBOX is the other project... sorry 'bout that.

For DOSLINK, we use the COPY command on 71/75, but not here. Also, COPY is a high level user command which is translated into a series of HP-IL lower level commands, depending on the type of target device; if data storage devices are the target, then it sends one set of commands, if an interface device then a totally different set of commands, so COPY support is not relevant in Series-80.

I'm using ENTER to request data from the DOSLINK device, but so far no luck. I'll post the program for other Series-80 experts to pick apart.

Thanks for the Exerciser program; now if only I could get it into the machine....