newRPL: Alpha demo 0.9 released [UPDATED 2017-10-25]

[Claudio L.]

(09-20-2017 05:42 AM)Neve Wrote:  Hmmm, that really sucks. I need access to many of these flags. I guess NewRPL is not for me then...

Just out of curiosity, which ones are the specific flags you need? Perhaps we can accelerate the implementation if it isn't done yet, or perhaps I can explain how newRPL did away with the flag if it was eliminated.

[Neve]

(09-20-2017 01:53 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  

(09-20-2017 06:39 AM)Neve Wrote:  To me, a new system or firmware should look the same as the “original” one, but be way better under-the-hood.

Therefore, modern cell phones should look like this then, but with a modern CPU, voice controlled Android OS (touchscreens are a disgrace, nothing like that old mouthpiece with a nice stretchy cord, in the end people miss it, that's why the icons still look that way).



Jokes aside, ask yourself if a relatively minor interface change on a 30-year old design is worth adapting to. I did adapt and works quite well for daily use. Having your variables *and* your most used commands available at once is really efficient. And this also allows you to insert content of variables in the editor, and even traverse directories while you are editing text. I guess you didn't even try the interactive stack yet.

By the way, the flags you desperately need are mostly gone for good. There's a few flags but newRPL removed much of the flag nightmare (exact vs approx mode, commands that switch to radians in order to work, etc).
Some of them are still there to control specific system behaviors but we eliminated flag-dependent execution as much as possible.

If you want to give up that easily, go ahead. If you dare to explore it a bit more, I'm sure you'll change your mind.

I’ll pass.
The interface and weird key assignments are a major deal breaker for me.
The flags too.
Too bad.

[The Shadow]

I just noticed that the micrometer is treated as its own base unit - you can't convert it to other length units.

[Claudio L.]

(09-20-2017 03:28 PM)The Shadow Wrote:  I just noticed that the micrometer is treated as its own base unit - you can't convert it to other length units.

Excellent catch!
Turns out the unit Micron uses the Unicode character U+03BC
But the "micro" SI prefix is the Unicode character U+00B5

They look identical, but this allows the "Micron" unit avoid conflict with the SI prefix.
In the source code, I mistakenly defined the Micron as 1_μm instead of 1_µm (see what I did there?). Even though it looks identical, the second one is the correct definition, as 1 micrometer (with the "Micro" symbol), the other one is using the letter Mu, so it's some base unit nobody ever heard of.

[The Shadow]

(09-20-2017 04:41 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  Excellent catch!
Turns out the unit Micron uses the Unicode character U+03BC
But the "micro" SI prefix is the Unicode character U+00B5

They look identical, but this allows the "Micron" unit avoid conflict with the SI prefix.
In the source code, I mistakenly defined the Micron as 1_μm instead of 1_µm (see what I did there?). Even though it looks identical, the second one is the correct definition, as 1 micrometer (with the "Micro" symbol), the other one is using the letter Mu, so it's some base unit nobody ever heard of.

Good grief that's confusing! Are you going to define the micro-micron too, just to have more "fun"?

EDIT: How do you type a mu and/or micro in newRPL, anyway?

EDIT: Also, I was mildly surprised not to see the kWh under energy.

[Claudio L.]

(09-20-2017 07:13 PM)The Shadow Wrote:  Good grief that's confusing! Are you going to define the micro-micron too, just to have more "fun"?

EDIT: How do you type a mu and/or micro in newRPL, anyway?

EDIT: Also, I was mildly surprised not to see the kWh under energy.

Yes, it is confusing. Perhaps I should try to get rid of that ambiguity and use one symbol for everything.
I still haven't decided which plane would be good for all the greek letters. Alpha-RS-Hold perhaps, then A through Z, so we leave the basic Alpha-RS for symbols like =, <, >.

Regarding the KWh, it definitely should be on the menu. I'll add that.

[pier4r]

(09-20-2017 06:39 AM)Neve Wrote:  To me, a new system or firmware should look the same as the “original” one

Who says that something that is new should be the same as the previous? Wouldn't be new otherwise, or not entirely new. More like an update.

Sometimes trying something different help. Otherwise the 50g with its firmware is still strong.

[The Shadow]

Claudio,

I just sent you an email with a program in which local variable assignment seems to be glitching.

[Neve]

(09-20-2017 02:08 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  

(09-20-2017 05:42 AM)Neve Wrote:  Hmmm, that really sucks. I need access to many of these flags. I guess NewRPL is not for me then...

Just out of curiosity, which ones are the specific flags you need? Perhaps we can accelerate the implementation if it isn't done yet, or perhaps I can explain how newRPL did away with the flag if it was eliminated.

As much as I do admire your work, time, effort and dedication, I wished you had built an interface that feels right. Unfortunately the current one is not very appealing to me. And I cannot work with something that doesn’t feel right.

[Luigi Vampa]

Dear Neve,
I may agree with you about the yet-a-work-in-progress feel of newRPL, and that is the why I still use my stock HP50g at work. Nevertheless, I hope you don't mind, if tell you, I would never describe such big work as "sucking". If you were newRPL's author, I am quite sure you could feel some discomfort while reading that word.
I am non-native in English-speaking, and sometimes is easy to fail when pondering English words full meaning. I suppose this might be the case.

[EDIT: I am sorry, I was wrong, Neve wasn't referring to the whole of newRPL (but just the flags) when he used the above mentioned term.
Nevertheless, IMHO, I might have get used to a more cordial and less emphatic tone between members, when expressing criticism and opinions.]

[Neve]

(09-22-2017 01:59 PM)Luigi Vampa Wrote:  Dear Neve,
I may agree with you about the yet-a-work-in-progress feel of newRPL, and that is the why I still use my stock HP50g at work. Nevertheless, I hope you don't mind, if tell you, I would never describe such big work as "sucking". If you were newRPL's author, I am quite sure you could feel some discomfort while reading that word.
I am non-native in English-speaking, and sometimes is easy to fail when pondering English words full meaning. I suppose this might be the case.

Luigi,
You must have misunderstood what I wrote entirely. If you read carefully, you will realize I was writing about the flags disappearance. I would never ever say his work sucked. On the contrary.
If you keep on reading my post, you’ll soon realize that i’m saying the exact opposite.
I am just merely giving my constructive opinion and never ever criticized his work.

[pier4r]

(09-22-2017 01:59 PM)Luigi Vampa Wrote:  Dear Neve,
I may agree with you about the yet-a-work-in-progress feel of newRPL, and that is the why I still use my stock HP50g at work. Nevertheless, I hope you don't mind, if tell you, I would never describe such big work as "sucking". If you were newRPL's author, I am quite sure you could feel some discomfort while reading that word.
I am non-native in English-speaking, and sometimes is easy to fail when pondering English words full meaning. I suppose this might be the case.

I do agree with the above text.

I mean, saying "hmm ok, for the moment I need something else but kudos for the effort!" is a diplomatic way to say "ok I cannot use it now". But using certain works like "does not feel right" or "too bad" and such, well, may be perceived (by me at least) as quite ungrateful.

It is like you work on something for years, then someone comes and say "woah, you worked that much the result is that pile of carp (or shirt, if you prefer shirts)? You sure are smart!"

Although you also write "As much as I do admire your work, time, effort and dedication" so likely the "harsh" remarks can be a case of not proper translation. (it happens to me often)

[Neve]

(09-22-2017 02:19 PM)pier4r Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 01:59 PM)Luigi Vampa Wrote:  Dear Neve,
I may agree with you about the yet-a-work-in-progress feel of newRPL, and that is the why I still use my stock HP50g at work. Nevertheless, I hope you don't mind, if tell you, I would never describe such big work as "sucking". If you were newRPL's author, I am quite sure you could feel some discomfort while reading that word.
I am non-native in English-speaking, and sometimes is easy to fail when pondering English words full meaning. I suppose this might be the case.

I do agree with the above text.

I mean, saying "hmm ok, for the moment I need something else but kudos for the effort!" is a diplomatic way to say "ok I cannot use it now". But using certain works like "does not feel right" or "too bad" and such, well, may be perceived (by me at least) as quite ungrateful.

It is like you work on something for years, then someone comes and say "woah, you worked that much the result is that pile of carp (or shirt, if you prefer shirts)? You sure are smart!"

Although you also write "As much as I do admire your work, time, effort and dedication" so likely the "harsh" remarks can be a case of not proper translation. (it happens to me often)

Believe what you want.
I gave my honest opinion (which I am totally entitled to give), and you are welcome not to agree with it.
But if you can’t take public constructive criticism no matter how long you have worked on something, there is nothing I can do about that other than tell you: Don’t go public.
If you want to start an argument about semantics, I’m sorry to tell you you’ve got the wrong person. Am I a diplomat? No.

[Luigi Vampa]

[OFF TOPIC]
Dear Neve,
This forum, as far as I have seen, is made up of a bunch of people who enjoy talking about HP RPN calcs, and the likes.
There is no need to start a snowball :0) I have corrected the error in my post above. Please, don't take it personal. We are all here to enjoy the company of all forum members. Thanks in advance for your understanding.

[Claudio L.]

(09-22-2017 02:35 PM)Neve Wrote:  Believe what you want.
I gave my honest opinion (which I am totally entitled to give), and you are welcome not to agree with it.
But if you can’t take public constructive criticism no matter how long you have worked on something, there is nothing I can do about that other than tell you: Don’t go public.
If you want to start an argument about semantics, I’m sorry to tell you you’ve got the wrong person. Am I a diplomat? No.

First I'd like to say... Walter, is that you? :-)

He is not taking the criticism, I am. I accepted your criticism, I even asked you for specific flags that you use in order to implement those faster, to turn your negative feedback into a development goal. That's the "constructive" part of the criticism, and I get it.
You are not a diplomat, that's clear. I'm not a salesperson, I'm a developer, so I'm not going to try and convince you to use something you don't like.
This is the first argument in almost 4 years of newRPL that turned toxic. Let's put an end to it now, shall we?
It's all good.

Claudio

[Neve]

(09-22-2017 06:35 PM)Claudio L. Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:35 PM)Neve Wrote:  Believe what you want.
I gave my honest opinion (which I am totally entitled to give), and you are welcome not to agree with it.
But if you can’t take public constructive criticism no matter how long you have worked on something, there is nothing I can do about that other than tell you: Don’t go public.
If you want to start an argument about semantics, I’m sorry to tell you you’ve got the wrong person. Am I a diplomat? No.

First I'd like to say... Walter, is that you? :-)

He is not taking the criticism, I am. I accepted your criticism, I even asked you for specific flags that you use in order to implement those faster, to turn your negative feedback into a development goal. That's the "constructive" part of the criticism, and I get it.

Good, ‘cause that’s all there was to see in it.

Quote: You are not a diplomat, that's clear. I'm not a salesperson, I'm a developer, so I'm not going to try and convince you to use something you don't like.

Nope, that I am definitely not indeed. I’m a system engineer and IT executive. I do like many things. But what I do not like is the interface that I find to crowded with two menu lines which, to me, are useless. I understand how it can be appealing to you or to some people. But on a screen that is already not that large, it’s not something I appreciate. Especially when you get older and when smaller fonts are becoming harder to read under low light conditions. Under normal conditions when you actually want smaller fonts, I can’t use flags to make the change, because these flags are not available.
Speaking of flags (but not only), as a general rule, I don’t like when options are removed and things are imposed. I like to have the ability to choose. If you want to make something better, and you have in more ways than I can list, don’t impose what works “for you”, or what doesn’t bother you, on others if you want to reach a broader public. Remember that, as a developer, you need to adapt your work to the need of the users not ask the user to get use to whatever vision you have of what they need. That sounds more like the Apple/Steve Jobs approach: “tell us what you don’t need, and will make sure you’ll need and impose them”
That includes the keyboard changes. Because, on top of having to learn (again) a somewhat different system rebuilt from the ground up, I don’t need nor want to have to remember what keys does what, just because they are now wired differently. That, to me, is another huge minus.
In other words: Freedom and flexibility.
I hope this all makes sense.

Quote: This is the first argument in almost 4 years of newRPL that turned toxic. Let's put an end to it now, shall we?
It's all good.
Claudio

Don’t blame me (I know you’re not). I’m not the one who started to argue about semantics and made an attempt to turn this constructive criticism into a toxic topic.
As far as I’m concerned, all is good and I’m glad we are as well. I’ll be the first to be more than happy to re-install NewRPL, trust me! Keep up the good work!

[Neve]

(09-22-2017 04:23 PM)Luigi Vampa Wrote:  [OFF TOPIC]
Dear Neve,
This forum, as far as I have seen, is made up of a bunch of people who enjoy talking about HP RPN calcs, and the likes.
There is no need to start a snowball :0) I have corrected the error in my post above. Please, don't take it personal. We are all here to enjoy the company of all forum members. Thanks in advance for your understanding.

Don’t worry, I may definitely not be be the best diplomat out there (in fact, if I were a Minister of Foreign Affairs or Secretary of State, I would probably start a world war in no time ) but I don’t hold a grudge.
I agree, there is absolutely no need to start an absolutely ridiculous and childish argument over this. No offense taken on my part.

Cheers

[pier4r]

(09-22-2017 02:35 PM)Neve Wrote:  Believe what you want.
I gave my honest opinion (which I am totally entitled to give), and you are welcome not to agree with it.
But if you can’t take public constructive criticism no matter how long you have worked on something, there is nothing I can do about that other than tell you: Don’t go public.
If you want to start an argument about semantics, I’m sorry to tell you you’ve got the wrong person. Am I a diplomat? No.

Uh?
Sure you are entitled of your opinion, as is everyone (until certain limits) but I wrote a critic, through an hyperbole, about your way of communicating.

You reply to that talking about "being able to absorb criticism" otherwise it would be better not to go public (in terms of a software project).

Aside from the fact that I don't agree with it - in fact one can do an open source project even just for like-minded people, it is one's decision to spend time and resources on it - the passage in itself does not seem consistent.

If you find legit (and I find it legit too) to expose criticism to something, you should follow your preachment showing to be able to collect some criticism. Instead it does not seem so, you got pretty defensive.

And I did not (and I do not) want to start a discussion about semantic.

I wrote the above just to clarify my perspective, since your last post that is towards me sounds confrontational but I find it inconsistent (could be due to the language barrier, as I am not a native English speaker).

Anyway said that I won't bother to continue this discussion because the tone of it led me to think it would be not that useful.

[Neve]

(09-22-2017 09:10 PM)pier4r Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:35 PM)Neve Wrote:  Believe what you want.
I gave my honest opinion (which I am totally entitled to give), and you are welcome not to agree with it.
But if you can’t take public constructive criticism no matter how long you have worked on something, there is nothing I can do about that other than tell you: Don’t go public.
If you want to start an argument about semantics, I’m sorry to tell you you’ve got the wrong person. Am I a diplomat? No.

Uh?
Sure you are entitled of your opinion, as is everyone (until certain limits) but I wrote a criticism, through an hyperbole, about your way of communicating.

You reply to that talking about "being able to absorb criticism" otherwise it would be better not to go public (in terms of a software project).

Aside from the fact that I don't agree with it - in fact one can do an open source project even just for like-minded people, it is one's decision to spend time and resources on it - the passage in itself does not seem consistent.

If you find legit (and I find it legit too) to expose criticism to something, you should follow your preachment showing to be able to collect some criticism. Instead it does not seem so, you got pretty defensive.

And I did not (and I do not) want to start a discussion about semantic.

I wrote the above just to clarify my perspective, since your last post that is towards me sounds confrontational but I find it inconsistent (could be due to the language barrier, as I am not a native English speaker).

Anyway said that I won't bother to continue this discussion because the tone of it led me to think it would be not that useful.

Not worth replying to. A complete waste of time.

[Luigi Vampa]

Gents, "mea culpa", I started this little mess. I should have read Neve's posts more carefully. Arrrgh, sometimes I have a big-mouth :.!
Please, let's stop here.
This thread is really worthy.
Big thanks :0)

PS: Caro Claudio, sono desolato :./