Coburlins new name

[SlideRule]

Interesting Discussion:
With respect to the term overcharging - the term deeply implies unethical business behavior.
With respect to a dealer charging an exorbitant price - the dealership operates in accord with business/legal contracts/obligations for the manufacturer - yes, LEGAL issue here
B U T
With respect to an auction house selling the same vehicle at an exorbitant price - good question - little to no LEGAL issue here (small consideration for proper representation of the vehicle)

In other words, we might be comparing Apples & Oranges, perhaps?

We often purchase items at a bargain or nominal value that appreciates or accrues in value, WHO or WHAT transfers that value is seldom insignificant and overtly influences the 'character' of the transaction.

BEST!
SlideRule

[Michael de Estrada]

(01-12-2018 08:28 PM)SlideRule Wrote:  Interesting Discussion:
With respect to the term overcharging - the term deeply implies unethical business behavior.
With respect to a dealer charging an exorbitant price - the dealership operates in accord with business/legal contracts/obligations for the manufacturer - yes, LEGAL issue here
B U T
With respect to an auction house selling the same vehicle at an exorbitant price - good question - little to no LEGAL issue here (small consideration for proper representation of the vehicle)

In other words, we might be comparing Apples & Oranges, perhaps?

We often purchase items at a bargain or nominal value that appreciates or accrues in value, WHO or WHAT transfers that value is seldom insignificant and overtly influences the 'character' of the transaction.

BEST!
SlideRule

The car comparison should be an antique and very rare auto to a vintage calculator, where you are buying from a seller of antiquities, not a new product dealer where there is some sort of msrp. In such a case, the seller can set the price as high as he/she wishes, but that does not obligate anyone to buy it. Recently, there was a rare HP-35 Red Dot being auctioned on eBay with a starting bid of $5000, but it did not sell, so the marketplace determined that the price was too high. However, had it sold and the buyer had discovered that it was a fake, then that indeed would be a case of fraud.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

(01-12-2018 08:28 PM)SlideRule Wrote:  In other words, we might be comparing Apples & Oranges, perhaps?

To a certain degree yes. On the other hand, legally speaking eBay is not an auction house, at least not here. But I don't want to open another can of worms...

All I said in my first posting on this subject was that selling collectibles at superpremium prices does not really make you poplar in a community of collectors. And I think this statement will be seconded by a wast majority here!

[SlideRule]

Finding a rare or antique or classic auto at a brand name dealership isn't impossible, it is more than not, simply unlikely; the likelihood is greater at say a Mecum auto auction(s) than a used car lot(s). It is not, however, impossible. For my part, I would expect the lowest cost for equivalent condition at a used car lot rather than at auction, but on very rare occasion. Even better, the forgotten and neglected auto in an old garage, barn etc. would has high potential for the best ROI. Although this example is an analogy, I am confident it encapsulates the discussion.

BEST!
SlideRule

[cruff]

(01-12-2018 06:50 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  [The German term for this kind of deal is "sittenwidrig".

Google says sittenwidrig = immoral, but I expect there may be a different legal term with similar connotations.

[Guenter Schink]

(01-12-2018 06:50 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  

(01-12-2018 06:39 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  Overcharging for something is not fraud, ...

In this part of the world it is. If grandma goes to the auto dealer and he sells her a small Toyota for 150,000 Euros he will go to jail for that.

Edit: The German term for this kind of deal is "sittenwidrig". No idea what American legal term that translates into (and no time for googling as I am to to my weekly astronomers meeting - we suffer the same problem that some people are trying to maximise their income from our hobby...)

There are real bargains on the German ebay too. If grandma buys this, so what. No one cares in this part of the world which is yours also.

Günter

[Howard Owen]

It's amusing how the discussion here mirrors older threads on the original board. I resented Coburlin because he was exploiting hobbyists like me. I had this idea that the community I was a part of had more than a mere commercial interest in the machines we loved. This had an element of hypocrisy since the bum was scooping up hardware I wanted with ridiculously low prices, then turning around to sell them at prices I wouldn't pay.

But the impulse came from my experience as a technology enthusiast from the 1970s forward. User groups, like PPC, Apple ][ users and even Usenix and Decus had a lot of folks who were interested in sharing and trading. These folks sometimes looked askance at commercial exploitation of the technology. Some were idealists, like Richard Stallman and others just didn't want other folks to exploit their work without getting their due - in money or fame or both. There was also a bit of the same hypocrisy I mentioned above. I recall, for instance, my resentment when Apple came out with the Mac - a closed box that I couldn't afford. Speaking for myself, a lot of this was naivete, but there was also a core of idealism. Richard Stallman and the GNU project came out of an academia that shared many of the same values as the user groups. He saw proprietary software as immoral, which set a firm goalpost on one end of the software political spectrum.

I was a Free Software enthusiast all through my career as a systems nerd. I blessed rms for his rectitude, but my main interest was in getting things done by leveraging the various communities. Participating in the HP calculator community brought back the earlier idealism I felt when ripping off Apple ][ software - I mean learning how computer architecture worked. Despite that irony, I had (and have) a genuine fondness for celebrating technology for its own sake. Buying and selling the old machines was fun (I don't do it much anymore) but I always had this feeling that the commercial interest cut against the enjoyment.

But yes, the United States is the home of caveat emptor. As long as representations aren't provably, criminally fraudulent, pretty much anything goes. Coburlin is legally entitled to slaughter his lambs. It's just that it seems a little messy to me sometimes.

[toml_12953]

(01-12-2018 10:32 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  

(01-12-2018 08:28 PM)SlideRule Wrote:  In other words, we might be comparing Apples & Oranges, perhaps?

To a certain degree yes. On the other hand, legally speaking eBay is not an auction house, at least not here. But I don't want to open another can of worms...

All I said in my first posting on this subject was that selling collectibles at superpremium prices does not really make you poplar in a community of collectors. And I think this statement will be seconded by a wast majority here!

Anyone could find and buy from the same sources as he does for the same low price that he is charged, couldn't they?

[brickviking]

(01-13-2018 09:52 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  Anyone could find and buy from the same sources as he does for the same low price that he is charged, couldn't they?

Indeed, but good luck doing so. You'd have to basically pay more than the other guys are willing to pay to win the auction. If this is a low price, then you get lucky. Otherwise, we all know where that leads.

For example, I got lucky when I managed to find a Casio fx-9750gII for about half the current retail price. Sometimes even retailers can sell for good prices, which is how I got my 50G from America for about a third of the then-current New Zealand price.

(Post 150)

[Dave Frederickson]

(01-14-2018 01:29 AM)brickviking Wrote:  

(01-13-2018 09:52 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  Anyone could find and buy from the same sources as he does for the same low price that he is charged, couldn't they?

Indeed, but good luck doing so. You'd have to basically pay more than the other guys are willing to pay to win the auction. If this is a low price, then you get lucky. Otherwise, we all know where that leads.

For example, I got lucky when I managed to find a Casio fx-9750gII for about half the current retail price. Sometimes even retailers can sell for good prices, which is how I got my 50G from America for about a third of the then-current New Zealand price.

(Post 150)

Not necessarily. Some sellers are invited to private auctions.

[jch]

(01-13-2018 12:29 AM)cruff Wrote:  

(01-12-2018 06:50 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  [The German term for this kind of deal is "sittenwidrig".

Google says sittenwidrig = immoral, but I expect there may be a different legal term with similar connotations.

Buying low, selling high in the hope to make a substantial profit!
(excessive) Speculation?

Governments may regulate that when dealing with essential goods, but for the rest, the market will.

[HP-Collection]

Wow, actually I just wanted to draw attention to the change of name of a person ... That I would trigger such a detailed threath I did not expect.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

(01-14-2018 02:49 PM)HP-Collection Wrote:  Wow, actually I just wanted to draw attention to the change of name of a person ... That I would trigger such a detailed threath I did not expect.

It looks like we have kind of a common enemy here, does it. And common enemies always united a community more than anything else ;-)

And I clarify my point once again: Buying cheap and selling expensive is not bad in itself, especially for goods which do not carry a dedicated price tag (collectibles) and in fields which are not in some way regulated. (And please don't tell me the US market is free ... who still does believe that can for example try and sell an aircraft there which was made in Canada). But this person tends (or tended, back then when we learnt to hate him) to buy his stuff by contacting other sellers and talking them into ending their auctions early and selling their calculators directly to him. Which is a clear violation of the rules of that platform.

[aurelio]

How long I'm not buying calculators on e-bay ("TAS" as we were saying years ago)

TAS today is taking much more care of his ebayers than at the beginning of the games and this is really to appreciate, you can buy almost always safely and protected.

Sometimes I see that calculators (or other kind of collectables items ) are for sale with exorbitant prices and somebody anyhow buy them...maybe people with deep pockets as Michael wrote but I don't think they are so many.
People know (collectors is better to say) quite well the prices of the things they want and the market has its rules

[larthurl]

(01-12-2018 06:21 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Hello!

(01-12-2018 05:47 PM)Michael de Estrada Wrote:  If you are foolish enough to overpay for something that is available from someone else for far less, then shame on you for not doing your research.

Where I live, ripping of "foolish" people is called fraud. And this is what I think of it as well. Imagine my wife or my mom who both know I collect calculators want to buy me a birthday present. They will soon find out that about the only remaining source for such stuff is eBay. Not knowing much about calculators and not knowing much about eBay they may end up buying stuff from people like this (ex) Coburlin. He has good quality products that no one else has and 100% rating. I cetrainly wouldn't want that to happen. And would it really be "foolish" of them to do it? What kind of research are they supposed to do?

Luckily there are other examples of calculator collectors who (at least partly) finance their hobby through buying and selling stuff wihout ripping off the poor "foolish" ones among us. For example "datamath-calculator-museum", "frodo_baggins_uk", "typenkorb" or "waterhosko" (who manufactues and sells mostly home-made replacement battery packs for ridiculously low money) and a few more. (BTW: According to the forum rules we are supposed to state our own eBay name when writing down other people's names. If anyone is interested I will PM them my eBay alias, but I won't write it here next to my real name as every internet harvest bot will then be able to link the two).

Regards
Max

This is exactly why I sell stuff on eBay as auctions. Let the market decide what something is worth. No one is going to cheat me out of something because they are a shark and I don't know the detailed ins and outs of a specific item pricing. Sometimes I am even surprised at the price something I have sells for, when I had no idea.

.....Art