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smp · 05-09-2018, 05:33 PM

(05-09-2018 08:45 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote: One rule that I've recently followed more frequently is :

8 - don't feed the troll.

I think that not engaging in troubled discussions is one of the most efficient ways to keep this forum friendly.

I am *really* liking that one, Didier! Thanks for giving voice to what I was thinking.

Gene: Thanks very much for that OP, and for the hard work you and the other Mods put into this excellent Forum.

smp

Zaphod · 05-09-2018, 06:02 PM

Where’s the like button ?? (for post 20)

Massimo Gnerucci · 05-09-2018, 06:37 PM

And goodbye Geir.

For those on Facebook...

Eric Rechlin · 05-09-2018, 06:54 PM

I am the primary moderator of a very popular discussion forum, not related to HP calculators, with over 75,000 members. I am fully aware that moderating is an unpaid, thankless task that subjects one to a lot of abuse from horrible people.

I know what it's like to be called a "Nazi" or "censor" or "Hitler" for deleting things that don't belong -- those are all words I have been called on multiple occasions, plus words I won't reproduce here. I know what it's like to have people stalk me and harass me, sometimes even for YEARS (!!!), because they don't like the "censorship" I'm doing as a moderator. So I am not at all "whining" just because some threads are being deleted. I fully understand the need to remove certain things.

Being a moderator is really not a fun endeavor, but it's a necessary service to the community, so somebody does have to volunteer for the job and be willing to put up with the consequences.

But the two threads in question did not justify deletion. One, which had a valuable implementation of a programming language, was removed, as best as I can tell because some moderator didn't like a particular combination of four letters in the programming language name (I can think of no other explanation, even though that in itself is a very poor explanation, because anyone who is so fragile to be offended by that has serious issues). The other had a select few people who were going on and on about things that were already resolved, but there was still a lot of great, thought-provoking discussion in there that is useful for future reference.

Sure, there are plenty of things that deserve removal. Even on comp.sys.hp48, which is officially totally unmoderated (and has survived for nearly three decades in that form!), there are control posts to delete spam, and I am 100% OK with that. But it's the complete removal of valuable threads that I am offended by.

For years I have resisted creating a "competing" forum for HP calculators on my own site, because I don't want to fragment the community, which was already fragmented too much between comp.sys.hp48 and this forum. But when those in charge of the remaining forum (since comp.sys.hp48 is nearly dead) stray away from being mostly hands-off, just handling things like spam and harassment, and start removing entire threads that are mostly good, and banning otherwise contributory users who are being a little annoying, I start to question whether I made the right decision.

Harald · 05-09-2018, 07:16 PM

(05-09-2018 06:54 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote: it's the complete removal of valuable threads that I am offended by.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. And it is not only that these threads have been removed completely, but also every single contribution ever made to this forum by a user has been removed. Even if he deserved being banned (hard to tell with all the evidence removed), I don't feel it is justified to remove valuable contributions that have been made in the past.

Cheers,
Harald

Harald · 05-09-2018, 07:23 PM

(05-08-2018 03:47 PM)Gene Wrote: 4 – Avoid language that raises the temperature of the dialog. Yes, that involves four-letter words, but it can be more than that. In 2017, do we really mean watching language for words like **** and ####? Yes. Something Richard Nelson put in place in the PPC Journal long ago has always stuck with me: This is a technical publication and those types of words do not add to the discussion. They are a diversion from sharing knowledge.

While I agree to that point in principle (and to everything else you have said as well), I do feel there is a difference between using four letter words to insult people and using them while refering to something named by others (ie a license or a programming language).

Cheers,
Harald

**Dave Hicks** · 05-09-2018, 07:25 PM

I have been working on getting the previously mentioned user back online. There has been an annoyingly slow (in my opinion) discussion going on in the moderators forum and I was just allowing time for a response with the expectation that I would just unban him this afternoon if I kept getting ignored. I had no idea about the post deletions until about 10 minutes ago and I am shocked and very sorry about that! The person that deleted them is not currently a moderator and will remain that way unless I get a sensible explanation.

**Dave Hicks** · (This post was last modified: 05-09-2018 11:31 PM by Dave Hicks.)

In the interest of disclosure, I have moved a thread that had been running in the moderators forum to a broadly accessible forum here:

[OK This has been seen and still has a lot of junk in it so I'm taking it away again.]

Ugh. Not a good day at all.

ScottJ · 05-09-2018, 07:44 PM

(05-09-2018 07:25 PM)Dave Hicks Wrote: I have been working on getting the previously mentioned user back online. There has been an annoyingly slow (in my opinion) discussion going on in the moderators forum and I was just allowing time for a response with the expectation that I would just unban him this afternoon if I kept getting ignored. I had no idea about the post deletions until about 10 minutes ago and I am shocked and very sorry about that! The person that deleted them is not currently a moderator and will remain that way unless I get a sensible explanation.

I hope this works out okay for all concerned. I didn't even know this forum existed until I saw the banned user's post on Facebook. It seems like a great place to share information, compare notes, and chat about these mysterious and wonderful calculators we love. It's kind of sad that I found out about it via someone getting kicked off ... but it's nice to be on here.

Scott

**Gene** · 05-09-2018, 08:02 PM

Welcome back.

I would again encourage all of us, moderators included, to try to follow the points in the first post in this thread. I would add "don't feed the troll" to the list.

Gene

Harald · 05-09-2018, 08:16 PM

(05-09-2018 08:02 PM)Gene Wrote: Welcome back.

I would again encourage all of us, moderators included, to try to follow the points in the first post in this thread. I would add "don't feed the troll" to the list.

Gene

Sounds like a good plan!

Cheers,
Harald

d b · 05-09-2018, 08:22 PM

Dave;

You might be referring to my response to the member who posted a letter addressed to me on the open forum that began with my name and ended with a link to a youtube with "F*** YOU-F*** YOU-F*** YOU-F*** YOU" repeated a couple of dozen times, right above his signature.

You may be talking about my response to the member who couldn't stop following me around the forum, claiming I had said and done things which I hadn't, and inciting a feeding frenzy against me from a couple of other members who never bothered to check what I really did (or didn't) say or do.

I demonstrated how low I valued of both of their words. I did that in your home though. That was unforgivably wrong and a violation of your trust. I am sorry for reflecting badly on you. I wish you well in all your endeavors. -den

pier4r · (This post was last modified: 05-09-2018 08:50 PM by pier4r.)

Little note about the other thread from the mod forum.

To be consistent with the idea of "no foul language" can someone edit the one billion "fricks" that den wrote?

Aside from that, I guess that den snapped since the post is really vulgar and like stormfront worst posts. Nice also the hate against an entire continent (Europe). Impressive.

**Dave Hicks** · 05-09-2018, 09:03 PM

Good point - I think I've got most of the bad words out now. Thanks.

Robert VM · 05-09-2018, 09:17 PM

Thanks to all the people who make it a good week, month, year(s).

ScottJ · 05-09-2018, 10:04 PM

(05-09-2018 09:03 PM)Dave Hicks Wrote: Good point - I think I've got most of the bad words out now. Thanks.

Upon reading that thread I was kind of put off to see him use a homophobic slur there as well. I'm not gay but many of my friends are and that kind of talk is very out of place.

**Dave Hicks** · (This post was last modified: 05-09-2018 11:32 PM by Dave Hicks.)

If it's still there can you PM it to me? On second thought - I think that thread is no longer needed.

**Dave Hicks** · 05-10-2018, 12:15 AM

Well we've already had one report about your language today so maybe not. (Not just yours, it's been a really bad day on that front too.)

Apparently the bear you poked was pretty angry because he made no provision to recover them later. You may be able to find them in google caches or similar.

Try not to poke the bears so much in the future and I'll try to get more mellow bears to volunteer. I'm currently interviewing this one:

Manolo Sobrino · 05-10-2018, 01:38 AM

Well, that escalated quickly. I have to say this:

Maybe -or definitely, I'm not arguing about this- he lost his temper, these things happen, but I stand up for Den. I think his heart is, and has always been, in the right place. Yes, we all make mistakes, and we all have quirks... all of us.

Geir, I've also received strange mail from some member of this community, but I think that's the kind of private stuff we all can take. And I'm also kind of waiting for exactly one member's apology, which I don't really expect and that's fine by me. No big deal.

BTW, I don't like to read, in this forum nor elsewhere, this kind of statement:

"Also, I have contributed far and beyond what Den has to this community."

I'm not saying you shouldn't write this, it's great that you can write it here, of course. Please, do it as many times as you want if you want to. I'm just saying that I don't like to read it. Of course there are other things (here and elsewhere) that I don't like to read, but I just wanted to say that I don't like to read this one.

IMHO this should be just a boring community about calculators, which I think is a great thing in itself.

**Dave Hicks** · 05-10-2018, 02:07 AM

Den has done a LOT of hard work for this community. He has dealt with a lot of… "stuff" to use a family-friendly term - much of it in the background. I haven't been able to be here much of the time and Den has often been fighting fires to his guesitmation of my expectations. His guestimations weren't always exactly accurate but that's the way stuff like that goes. I removed his mod status because we weren't able to communicate quickly enough today, because some of his language was inappropriate, because he had said that he was tired of all this… and then, I quite honestly panicked when I saw a huge series of post deletions that I previously knew nothing about. And I had to run out again - so I took an action. I probably didn't handle it in the best way. I'm still processing.