Multiline HP15C

[toml_12953]

(06-11-2018 09:39 AM)Fungus Wrote:  Data format isn't a problem. One of the reasons for using BCD in the first place is that it's easy to display (it's actually a lot harder for the computer to to compute with than binary).

In some cases, yes. There are computers that have BCD mode built into the microcode so BCD calculations are natively supported and are no more difficult for the CPU than binary (Intel's x86 for example)

[Valentin Albillo]

(06-11-2018 08:00 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  

(06-11-2018 09:39 AM)Fungus Wrote:  Data format isn't a problem. One of the reasons for using BCD in the first place is that it's easy to display (it's actually a lot harder for the computer to to compute with than binary).

In some cases, yes. There are computers that have BCD mode built into the microcode so BCD calculations are natively supported and are no more difficult for the CPU than binary (Intel's x86 for example)

Indeed, HP's Capricorn CPU (as used in the HP-85/86/87, for instance) has BCD calculations natively supported as well.

V.
.

[Valentin Albillo]

(06-11-2018 08:47 AM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  Can anyone confirm that System RPL was used as the internal programming development language for *all* Saturn based HPs (including the entire Pioneer series)? I believe this to be the case but I can't seem to find documented confirmation of this.

It wasn't used for the Saturn-based HP-71B. The internal programming development language for it was directly Saturn assembler for maximum speed and efficiency

V.
.

[Steve Simpkin]

(06-11-2018 11:22 PM)Valentin Albillo Wrote:  

(06-11-2018 08:47 AM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  Can anyone confirm that System RPL was used as the internal programming development language for *all* Saturn based HPs (including the entire Pioneer series)? I believe this to be the case but I can't seem to find documented confirmation of this.

It wasn't used for the Saturn-based HP-71B. The internal programming development language for it was directly Saturn assembler for maximum speed and efficiency
V.

Ah, I keep forgetting about HP's handheld computers. I was thinking only of HP "calculators". Thanks for the reminder.

[Fungus]

(06-11-2018 08:00 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:  ...BCD calculations are natively supported and are no more difficult for the CPU than binary (Intel's x86 for example)

They only support adding/subtracting.

I don't know any CPUs that can multiply or divide BCD numbers. They certainly don't calculate sines/cosines, powers or logarithms in BCD.

[rprosperi]

(06-11-2018 08:47 AM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  Can anyone confirm that System RPL was used as the internal programming development language for *all* Saturn based HPs (including the entire Pioneer series)? I believe this to be the case but I can't seem to find documented confirmation of this.

SysRPL, which evolved from HP-71 Forth, was created to be used exactly how you suggest, but I've heard/read that most of the Pioneers (and probably also the Champion machines) needed to have some to significant portions implemented in assembler. Specifically, the 42S was mostly assembler, no doubt due to it's advanced needs for things like fast complex number and matrix support.

The 48, then 49 and ultimately 50 series machines probably were able to revert to mostly SysRPL (though they all have many portions in assembler as well) due to the significantly higher CPU clock speeds, and of course eventually the ARM layer emulation.

Sources: Some of these comments came from developers at the time (at HHC conferences) and IIRC, the info on the 42S is from Christoph's examination of the 42S ROM. So mostly anecdotal, but probably also true.

[burkhard]

Just tossing in that the design for the multi-line 15 is gorgeous. My 15C got me through engineering school back in the 80s and was/is a great carry-around calculator. Back in the day, I was *really* fast with it... a bit out of practice now :-)

The landscape format is quite dear to me. While it's impractical to pack a big screen on it for graphing, what Walter did here is most excellent—a few lines of stack visibility and some ability for alphanumeric are really nice.

I see other features that would make great additions to the 15C as well: support for multiple bases, a catalog of functions, an alpha register, &c. Wow.

Knowing Walter, he probably already wrote a manual or at least sketched out a detailed spec. Does such a document (publicly) exist?

If somehow / someday this is ever turned into hardware, I'd be sending my $ in for sure. So many great ideas and projects out there... just need to (rebuild) a market which I bet still exists in reduced form. I reckon there are an awful lot of geek engineers / scientists out there who would still be all over things like this or more currently, the DM-42, if they only knew about it. A short viral video is needed that can get shared/circulated through social media. I've seen Kickstarter support explode for what I would think are pretty niche items. It's all about awareness. Even getting a DM42 featured on a popular techie YouTube channel like EEVblog (he's got 500,000 subscribers, and if I recall has waxed poetically on the HP41C in the past) would be instant orders by the wheelbarrow.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(06-12-2018 01:48 PM)burkhard Wrote:  Knowing Walter, he probably already wrote a manual or at least sketched out a detailed spec. Does such a document (publicly) exist?

It shouldn't be too difficult to reach him directly, e.g. through SourceForge or another calculator forum. But it would be much better for all of us here if his ban could be lifted so that he can continue to contribute here where it matters!

(06-12-2018 01:48 PM)burkhard Wrote:  I reckon there are an awful lot of geek engineers / scientists out there who would still be all over things like this or more currently...

I am not so sure about that, at least if "awful lot" has a totally different meaning for us. It would be interesting to know how many units Swiss Micros are selling, but that number must be as close to "awful lot" as it possibly gets. So I think that geeky calculators will always remain a small niche market for tinkerers and enthusiats who feed that market more for their own pleasure than for a profit.

Regards
Max

[BobVA]

(06-12-2018 01:48 PM)burkhard Wrote:  ...Even getting a DM42 featured on a popular techie YouTube channel like EEVblog (he's got 500,000 subscribers, and if I recall has waxed poetically on the HP41C in the past) would be instant orders by the wheelbarrow.

A DM-15 did make an appearance in one of Dave's recent videos (a comparison of two Casio scientific calculators). I wonder if SM noticed any uptick in web traffic?

[burkhard]

Quote:I am not so sure about that, at least if "awful lot" has a totally different meaning for us. It would be interesting to know how many units Swiss Micros are selling, but that number must be as close to "awful lot" as it possibly gets. So I think that geeky calculators will always remain a small niche market for tinkerers and enthusiats who feed that market more for their own pleasure than for a profit.

Yeah, I didn't mean to overstate things. I agree it is a niche market, a small fraction of what existed in the 80s and 90s. No argument there. I only think that there are a lot of RPN-favoring geeks out there who don't know about Swiss Micros or other such modern endeavors.

A few personal anecdotes:

• A year or so back, a work colleague bemoaned to me the passing of his HP41CX. I pointed him to the Swiss Micros site, whence he immediately purchased a DM-41L, which he loves. He hasn't started a big collection or jumped into forums, &c., but he likes that DM41L.

• Another colleague was telling me how much he loved his 15C and was sorry he missed out on the 15C LE (he just wasn't aware of it until it was too late). I pointed him to Swiss Micros. He was most intrigued. He said he would have surely purchased a DM15L, but he had already just bought an HP-35s.

• A couple of years back, I was completely out of the "HP calc scene" and had never heard of the WP-34s, but happened to stumble upon it on YouTube somehow. "Wow, this is amazing! This project has been going on for 5 years and I've been ignorant of it?". I jumped in then, but I would have done so much sooner had I known. I have since built a few, gotten active on here, and acquired some other old HPs as well (particularly the 41C series).

Sure, we see the size of the current small niche. Those folks are the really hardcore HP fans who have mostly been active in online groups for many years. I think the real market is bigger...still a niche, but many times larger. My experience tells me there are a lot of dormant HP RPN fans out there, people who don't frequent the varied websites / boards, but still use an old HP or wish they still had their old one. Make them aware (like me and my friends) and there are more sales. For something that has significant investment / fixed costs hurdles to meet before becoming feasible, that's important.

Finally, I agree w.r.t. Walter. Characters, especially highly creative ones, make every group / organization more interesting and fun.

[Fungus]

(06-12-2018 01:48 PM)burkhard Wrote:  Just tossing in that the design for the multi-line 15 is gorgeous. My 15C got me through engineering school back in the 80s and was/is a great carry-around calculator. Back in the day, I was *really* fast with it... a bit out of practice now :-)

The landscape format is quite dear to me.

Yep. My main lust for these calculators is the size/shape/format. Landscape mode is much more elegant then portrait mode and two thumb typing is much faster.

Plus: These things are really small. They fit in a pocket as easily as most four-function calculators!

HP totally nailed it with the basic design and build quality of these calculators, IMHO.

The main justification for doing this (IMHO) would be to keep that desirability but to take it to the next level. I don't think there's many HP 11C/15C owners out there who can look at that image without thinking, "Want!"

Swiss Micros already make landscape format calculators, they already make multi-line calculators, they already work with the emulators, they could totally make this happen...

(06-12-2018 01:48 PM)burkhard Wrote:  I see other features that would make great additions to the 15C as well: support for multiple bases, a catalog of functions, an alpha register, &c. Wow.

To add new features would need a complete new firmware (which isn't a showstopper). I can think of a few things that could be taken away and a few things I'd like to add, but that's a whole other thread.

(eg. Who does statistical calculations on a calculator in the days of Excel? Who's going to be typing in matrices and complex numbers...? I'd swap those functions for number bases if I could)

Different firmwares and keyboard templates would be phase 2.