+- HP Forums (https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Not HP Calculators (/forum-7.html)
+--- Forum: Not remotely HP Calculators (/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge (/thread-1243.html)
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Maximilian Hohmann - 05-08-2014 10:47 AM
(05-08-2014 10:37 AM)walter b Wrote: Hmmh, a nice concept... of 2008. Apparently didn't go any further.
There is the "Optimus Popularis" keyboard from 2011 ( http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/popularis/ ) and some later concepts (on top of the page). The idea is good, but too expensive. And too much battery drain, even for a glow-in-the-dark enthusiast like me...
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Eddie W. Shore - 05-08-2014 12:45 PM
(05-07-2014 03:04 AM)Dale Reed Wrote: My contribution follows.
Because I got an HP-25 (instead of a car) for my 18th birthday, and because it has 25 keys, I thought I'd name mine the DR-25S.
I tried to get all the scientific functions on it up through the HP-33C (sorry, guys -- no SOLVE or INTEG), plus add the binary, octal, hex and their bit operations (Bit-wise AND/OR/XOR/NOT etc. in "BIT" menu), plus some other stuff that I find most useful in MY work. (This is a calculator I would want. As I have done some microcontroller projects with custom PC boards and have a 3D printer, plus most of the parts, I might just make this one!!!)
My priorities:
- RPN (big Enter key a must)
- Basic Math (double-precision IEEE float required)
- Binary / Octal / Hex display and bitwise integer ops
- Programming with LBL, GTO, GSB and RET
- Trigs, Hyps, Logs, Exps
- Basic stats with linear regression
- Polar/Rectangular, Degree/Radian and H/H.ms conversions on keyboard
- Menus for long-list-ish stuff: constants, comparisons, parts, conversions
- USB, IR printing, Micro SD Card (with menus for each)
- 4-line 20-char LCD (easy interface, but room for menus or show 4-level stack)
I figured three shifts (like 34C, 65, 67) would work. I tried to do f and f(inverse) like 65, but it just wasn't to be. So it's f, g and h together on the left. (Yellow, blue, black is fine by me, like 67 / 34C)
I've tried to be smart about grouping:
Programming on the shifted left keys:
SST, BST, GSB, GTO, PSE, DEL, Flag menu, CMP (comparisons) menu.
Stack manipulation unshifted on the top row:
ENTER, Roll Down, X/Y exchange (I'm used to a 4-level stack, and no room for Roll Up)
Memory manipulation shifted on the stack manipulation keys:
STO, RCL, X/mem exchange, I and [I]
Number entry on the upper right:
EEX, +/-, LastX
Slide rule stuff on the top shifted:
SqRt, y**x, ln, e**x, log, 10**x (Yes, I use "log" for base 10. Sue me.)
trig, hyperbolics, D/R and R/P shifted on the 789 and 456 rows
sin, inv sin, cos, inv cos, tan, inv tan,
sinh, inv sinh, cosh, inv cosh, tanh, inv tanh
Polar / Rectangular conversion, Degrees / Radians conversion
(Hours / Hours.MinutesSeconds conversion right below those)
Binary, Octal, Hex, Decimal integer and bit ops shifted on the 123 row
("16#0000_01DE" is the style used in IEC-61131-3 PLC languages. Now you know. I like it, I'm used to it, I'm keeping it.)
Most menus h-shifted on the 123 row.
Stats on the shifts of the 0. row.
Avg, SampleSD, x-hat, y-hat, LR, r
All clears on the <--- key, including UNDO (except ClearSum)
Sum+, Sum-, ClearSum on the + key
Modulo, 1/x close to the divide key.
Most-used functions on the corners:
Plus (Sum+)
Run/Stop (Power on/off)
Enter (STO, SST)
CHS (log 10, 10**x, 1/x)
A, B, C, D, E, F double as Labels (in float, bin, octal, decimal) and as Hex entry keys [f] [16#] [0] [1] [h] [D] [h] [F] (h like in "hex") to enter 0x01DF, for example. Say it to yourself: "zero one hex-D hex-F" as you type it in... And just hit [f] [16#] [ENTER] to select hex display mode. Sweet...
So, Eddie, Walter, Pauli, and all ---- how'd I do?
Dale
Very nice! This calculator would be a power-house.
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Massimo Gnerucci - 05-08-2014 12:47 PM
(05-08-2014 10:37 AM)walter b Wrote:(05-08-2014 10:24 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: 15 OLED keys!
Hmmh, a nice concept
I know, I know... once was tempted to buy one of the full keyboards - when still a concept - before I saw the final price! :o
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Eddie W. Shore - 05-08-2014 12:49 PM
I like the idea of dynamic keys. I can see this for people who type in different languages or type equations.
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - walter b - 05-08-2014 12:50 PM
(05-08-2014 10:47 AM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote: The idea is good, but too expensive. And too much battery drain, even for a glow-in-the-dark enthusiast like me...
Certainly. Thanks to Pauli and Maximilian for pointing me to the product (was too easy
).d:-)
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - walter b - 05-08-2014 12:52 PM
(05-08-2014 12:49 PM)Eddie W. Shore Wrote: I can see this for people who type in different languages or type equations.
... using different character sets. Hence it was invented in Russia.
d:-)
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Eddie W. Shore - 05-11-2014 10:02 PM
(05-05-2014 08:21 PM)walter b Wrote:(05-05-2014 04:41 AM)Thomas Klemm Wrote: cf. Sinclair Scientific
@Thomas: Nice link but terrible calculator - could only be justified by replacing a slide rule. Or quoting Albert: Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler.
@Steve: I concur.
@Eddie: Come on, you can do better!
d:-I
How about this? I think this is close to a HP 10C or 25. This model is RPN only.
[attachment=664]
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Paul Dale - 05-11-2014 11:09 PM
(05-11-2014 10:02 PM)Eddie W. Shore Wrote: How about this? I think this is close to a HP 10C or 25. This model is RPN only.
Last X?
You'll need labels with 1,000 program steps. Also no RTN.
Pauli
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Eddie W. Shore - 05-11-2014 11:14 PM
Here is my attempted at a graphing model:
[attachment=665]
Alpha Numeric Characters will be handled via TI-73 or soft keyboard
(Hey I only have 25 keys!)
Modes:
RPN/Linear/Math IO
DEG/RAD/GRAD
FUNC/POLAR/PARAM/SEQN
a+bi, r<q, REALS
BIN/OCT/DEC/HEX
Language (dialogue bar)
Data: Edit, Name, Delete (Lists)
Stat: n, Means, Sums
Dist: Normal PDF, Normal CDF; iNorm, Bin PDF, Bin CDF, Poisson PDF, Poisson CDF, Chi-Squared PDF; Chi-Squared CDF, iChi-Squared
List: { }, sum, average, prod; sequence, sort ascending, sort descending, augment; Delta change, size, position
Regr: Vars (a, b, c, r), Regr (Lin, Log, Exp, Pwr, Inv, Quad, Cubic, Sine)
Matrix: [ ], determinant, trans, eigenvalues; eigenvectors, size, position, ref; rref, spec radius, rank, trace; LQ, LSQ, LU, QR
Prog:
File: New, Edit, Delete
Input: " ", Input, Prompt, Menu
Output: Clear, Display, Output, Graph
Tests: ==, >< , >, >=; <, <=, and, or
IFTE: If, Then, Else, EndIf
Loop: For, Step, Next; Repeat, Until, While, Wend
Ctrl: Pause, Stop, Error, Subr
String: length, sub, left, right; >expr, >string, position, augment
Math:
Frac: PDQ, a b/c, exact, approx
Hyp: (hyperbolic)
Prob: x!, nCr, nPr, gamma; rand, randint, randnorm, dice
Cmplx: abs, arg, real, imag; >Polar, >Rect
Parts: IP, FP, round
Calc: derivative, integral, S, P
Constants: (24 or more?)
Conversions: (12 pairs or more?)
Base:
Mark: b, o, h, d
HEX: A, B, C, D; E, F
Logic: and, or, not, xor; xnor, shift right, shift left, 2's
Utility:
RPN: swap, roll down, roll up, drop; over, pick, view, dupn
Solver: New, Edit, Delete, Solve Equation
ALPHA: - enter message and press enter
CAPS (Keyboard), lower (keyboard), Symb (! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) { } and math symbols), Greek
----
I probably am forgetting something but I think I got the basics covered
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Eddie W. Shore - 05-11-2014 11:25 PM
(05-11-2014 11:09 PM)Paul Dale Wrote:(05-11-2014 10:02 PM)Eddie W. Shore Wrote: How about this? I think this is close to a HP 10C or 25. This model is RPN only.
Last X?
You'll need labels with 1,000 program steps. Also no RTN.
Pauli
Yes. At first I was thinking we would use GTO xxx and the step numbers would be labels.
However, named labels are better. Hence, I made two new menus: CTRL (Goto, Label, ISG, DSZ, Indirect Variable) and CMDS (RTN, Pause, View, Break, Last X, Clear X)
Here is a revised version:
[attachment=666]
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - walter b - 05-12-2014 07:47 AM
(05-11-2014 10:02 PM)Eddie W. Shore Wrote:(05-05-2014 08:21 PM)walter b Wrote: @Eddie: Come on, you can do better!
How about this? I think this is close to a HP 10C or 25. This model is RPN only.
Far better (readable
). Some questions and nasty remarks in random order:- IIRC it's the first scientific without a SQRT - no, I finally found it. I'd vote for swapping ABS and SQRT.
- Obviously you are a statistics aficionado. Never really understood what people find fascinating in population standard deviations.
- Function grouping leaves significant space for improvement. Ergonomics as well.
- Placement of ENTER is quite unconventional. Well, it's next to the arithmetic keys.
- You can set DEG or RAD but I can't find how to convert.
- A programmable without LBL ? 1000 steps without labels?? Fascinating ...
- Usually, I store for recalling - so I use RCL more often than STO. I'd vote for making RCL unshifted.
- Are you sure about n,r ? I'd expect y_hat,r instead.
d:-)
Edit: Just saw you took care of the LBL commands already. So drop that remark ...
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - walter b - 05-12-2014 08:05 AM
Interesting concept.
Please, could you explain the structure of your menu system to me? Take PROG for example: How do you reach e.g. LOOP and the commands contained therein? TIA for enlightenment.
(BTW, the Greek alphabet looks slightly different.)
d:-?
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Eddie W. Shore - 05-13-2014 02:54 PM
(05-12-2014 08:05 AM)walter b Wrote: Interesting concept.
Please, could you explain the structure of your menu system to me? Take PROG for example: How do you reach e.g. LOOP and the commands contained therein? TIA for enlightenment.
(BTW, the Greek alphabet looks slightly different.)
d:-?
Cycling through menus through the use of PREV and NEXT, which apparently I put on the keyboard twice. (Epic fail goes to me)
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Dale Reed - 05-28-2014 12:19 AM
I didn't want Eddie's excellent challenge to die off, what with the 40th anniversary of the HP-25 coming up fast.
It was suggested that I lose the vertical ENTER^ key, so I did a layout with the suggested horizontal ENTER^ (like all but the upper row of the Woodstocks).
[attachment=710]
But I updated the other layout, too, because I found the groupings worked a bit more naturally with the 5x5 layout. I tweaked the menus (PROG, PRB, TIME, PRNT, etc.) and got one or two "simple" functions in (%, delta-%). I swapped LBL and RET so they are in a more natural order.
[attachment=767]
(edit: added .PNG of layout done in LibreOffice Draw)
So, Eddie, let me know what you think of these. IIRC, you were looking for a good stats machine. Me, I'm looking for a good programmable that can do the binary/hex stuff, logic ops, etc. Hope these are a good compromise. And for all you high-falutin' math dudes, sorry --- no alphas, betas, gammas, or whatever Greek y'all speak. I'm a control systems guy who forgot whatever s-domain stuff I learned back in the 70's. This machine is for my day-to-day stuff.
Dale
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - walter b - 05-28-2014 05:08 AM
(05-28-2014 12:19 AM)Dale Reed Wrote: I didn't want Eddie's excellent challenge to die off, what with the 40th anniversary of the HP-25 coming up fast.
It was suggested that I lose the vertical ENTER^ key, so I did a layout with the suggested horizontal ENTER^ (like all but the upper row of the Woodstocks).
Hey, that's something good lookin' an' fittin' to that upcoming birthday.
Although I've almost no idea what some menus will contain ...d:-?
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Dale Reed - 05-29-2014 12:59 AM
(05-28-2014 05:08 AM)walter b Wrote: Hey, that's something good lookin' an' fittin' to that upcoming birthday.
d:-?
You and me both! 'D'Ohh!'
Actually, here's sort of what I was going for:
CNST: Constants - probably a reduced set from what's in the WP-34S
CONV: Conversions - metric <-> imperial / U.S., mostly
SUMS: Sum of Xs, sum of Ys, sum of X**2s, sum of Y**2s, sum of XYs, n
PRB: Probability - combinations, permutations, ...
STAT: Statistics - means, standard deviations, ...
LR: Linear Regression - slope, intercept, r, x-hat . y-hat
RND: Random (numbers, not random menu) - seed, randomize, random number
FLG: Flag operations - set, clear, test true, test false
CMP: Comparisons - x ? 0, x ? y
PROG: Program stuff -- at least P <-> R, ISG / DSE, some simple program "file" management
CLR: Clear operations: x, stack, stats, programs (reset to start in run mode)
TIME: Calculations on dates & times not already on keyboard, possibly manage a real-time clock
USB: Operations with a USB host -- save & load programs, set for firmware updates
MODE: FIX / SCI / ENG, DEG / RAD / GRAD, decimal / separators
PRNT: Operations via IR to 82240A/B printer (trace, print prog, print stack, etc.)
PRT: Parts of numbers: CEIL, FLOOR, MOD, FRAC, INT, etc.
BIN: "Word"-wise binary ops on integers: AND, OR, XOR, NOT, etc.
The idea was to get nearly everything on an HP-25 on the keyboard, but relegating some less-used items (for me) and modes to menus in favor of stuff like I, [I], X<>(mem), program editing keys, hyperbolics, fraction display and binary / base (especially hex) items.
ABCDEF normally used for executing user code from labels. Pressing h-ABCDEF after f-16# (before ENTER^) inputs a hex digit. Pressing f-16# ENTER^ switches display to hex.
In previous version, I had little up / down / left / right arrows by the 2, 8, 4 and 6 respectively. These keys would be used to navigate menus, with ENTER^ to select the highlighted item.
If you're wondering how to undo a shift -- like 41C: press and hold any function until it cancels ("NULL").
Anyway, that's what I have in mind. I'm sure somebody can easily find a logical inconsistency before I even start coding.
So, Walter -- which do you like better: the six-row 5/4/4/4/4/4 or the five-row 5/5/5/5/5? For aesthetic reasons, I like the former, but some of the instruction grouping seemed better with the latter...
Dale
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - walter b - 05-29-2014 07:28 AM
Dale,
(05-29-2014 12:59 AM)Dale Reed Wrote: ... which do you like better: the six-row 5/4/4/4/4/4 or the five-row 5/5/5/5/5? For aesthetic reasons, I like the former, but some of the instruction grouping seemed better with the latter...
I can't find a six-row 5/4/4/4/4/4 layout of you.
Please point me to it.d:-?
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Didier Lachieze - 05-29-2014 08:38 AM
(05-29-2014 07:28 AM)walter b Wrote: I can't find a six-row 5/4/4/4/4/4 layout of you.
Maybe the first of post #34?
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - walter b - 05-29-2014 09:55 AM
(05-29-2014 08:38 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:(05-29-2014 07:28 AM)walter b Wrote: I can't find a six-row 5/4/4/4/4/4 layout of you.
Maybe the first of post #34?
Oooh rats, I should replace my eyes (or something else unable to count to 6)
Anyway, I like the first keyboard in that post better as stated in post #35. Labels may change but keys can't move.
d:-)
RE: Scientific Calculator Keyboard Challenge - Dale Reed - 06-07-2014 03:01 AM
(05-29-2014 09:55 AM)walter b Wrote: Oooh rats, I should replace my eyes (or something else unable to count to 6)
Anyway, I like the first keyboard in that post better as stated in post #35. Labels may change but keys can't move.
d:-)
Walter, I drew up the 5/5/5/5/5 layout in LibreOffice Draw and took a screenshot. I edited my Post #34 (above) to replace the photo of the sketch.
You're CERTAIN you don't like the 5x5 layout? I'll grant you the verical big ENTER^ key is a bit odd (position-wise, for you 15C users...). But look at the key groupings! All the programming stuff on the left from the top down. All the memory stuff at upper left. Number entry upper right. Stack manipulation upper left. Arithmetic on the right. Shifts on the left. Stats on the bottom. Integer logic ops on the 123 row. Basic trig and D<-->R on the 456 row. Hyperbolics and R<-->P on the 789 row. Time stuff on the minus key. Conversions on the arithmetic keys. Sums on the plus key. ENTER, Run/Stop and Plus on the corners. Logs, exponentials and square root on the upper right. I really do think the functions group better on this board than the 5/4/4/4/4/4 board.
What's not to like? :-)
Dale