HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Printable Version

HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Printable Version

+- HP Forums (https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum)
+-- Forum: HP Calculators (and very old HP Computers) (/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: General Forum (/forum-4.html)
+--- Thread: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM (/thread-13880.html)

Pages: 1 2 3

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Sylvain Cote - 11-06-2019 05:54 PM

Hello Jürgen
I have been following this thread and found it very interesting. Thank you!
I have a RAMBOX that I have never used because the battery was depleted when I got it.
Currently the unit is in pieces and at some point will need to be restored after reassembling the unit.

Hello Peter,
I am using Catalina 10.15.1 on a MacBookPro 15" 2019.
For Clonix modules, I am running ClonixConfig on a Windows 7 Pro. virtual machine inside Parallels Desktop 15.
Actually, I am using the above VM for all calculator related Windows software.

Sylvain

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Jurgen Keller - 11-06-2019 07:20 PM

(11-06-2019 05:54 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: I have a RAMBOX that I have never used because the battery was depleted when I got it.
Currently the unit is in pieces and at some point will need to be restored after reassembling the unit.

Do you know if it's a 32K or a (bank-switched) 64K RAMBOX? The 32K is easier to re-initialize.

(11-06-2019 05:54 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: I am using Catalina 10.15.1 on a MacBookPro 15" 2019.
For Clonix modules, I am running ClonixConfig on a Windows 7 Pro. virtual machine inside Parallels Desktop 15.
Actually, I am using the above VM for all calculator related Windows software.

Nearly the same here. I'm still on Mojave and I use VirtualBox with Windows 10. If I remember correctly I got the USB programmer (including the module adapter) directly from Diego.

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - hth - 11-06-2019 07:45 PM

(11-06-2019 07:20 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote:
(11-06-2019 05:54 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: I have a RAMBOX that I have never used because the battery was depleted when I got it.
Currently the unit is in pieces and at some point will need to be restored after reassembling the unit.

Do you know if it's a 32K or a (bank-switched) 64K RAMBOX? The 32K is easier to re-initialize.

(11-06-2019 05:54 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: I am using Catalina 10.15.1 on a MacBookPro 15" 2019.
For Clonix modules, I am running ClonixConfig on a Windows 7 Pro. virtual machine inside Parallels Desktop 15.
Actually, I am using the above VM for all calculator related Windows software.

Nearly the same here. I'm still on Mojave and I use VirtualBox with Windows 10. If I remember correctly I got the USB programmer (including the module adapter) directly from Diego.

I use High Sierra it seems. I long ago forgot about the order of the macOS versions, same with the kittens, what is the sorting order? What was wrong with numbers? I find numbers much easier to sort.

I build my Clonix module images on the macOS side using my own tools which produces an Intel hex file. For programming I use the Linux open source command line software from Microchip, compiled on macOS.

I use a PicKit-2 programmer because some users complained there were issues with the PicKit-3 programmer years ago (it was new at the time). This has probably been sorted out by now.

So it done entirely on the Mac side here.

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - PeterP - 11-06-2019 07:45 PM

thank you Sylvain & Juergen, that is indeed very helpful. iirc though the original Clonix programmer had a RS232 interface. Do you use a USB to rs232 converter and have no trouble with the VM? I heard that the treatment of USB ports in VMs is anything but trivial (and I know I failed at some point in the past to get it working).

Thank you for your invaluable inputs!

Cheers

PeterP

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Sylvain Cote - 11-06-2019 11:48 PM

(11-06-2019 07:45 PM)PeterP Wrote: thank you Sylvain & Juergen, that is indeed very helpful. iirc though the original Clonix programmer had a RS232 interface. Do you use a USB to rs232 converter and have no trouble with the VM? I heard that the treatment of USB ports in VMs is anything but trivial (and I know I failed at some point in the past to get it working).

Thank you for your invaluable inputs!

Cheers

PeterP

Hello Peter,

I use this K150 USB programmer for my Clonix & NoV modules. (at $6.50 USD + $1.50 USD shipping this programmer is a real bargain)
The programmer chip is on socket allowing me to update the firmware if needed and it currently contains the correct version (v25) needed by ClonixConfig to work with Diego's modules.

Sylvain

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Jurgen Keller - 11-07-2019 06:24 PM

(11-06-2019 07:45 PM)hth Wrote:
(11-06-2019 07:20 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: Do you know if it's a 32K or a (bank-switched) 64K RAMBOX? The 32K is easier to re-initialize.

Nearly the same here. I'm still on Mojave and I use VirtualBox with Windows 10. If I remember correctly I got the USB programmer (including the module adapter) directly from Diego.

I use High Sierra it seems. I long ago forgot about the order of the macOS versions, same with the kittens, what is the sorting order? What was wrong with numbers? I find numbers much easier to sort.

I build my Clonix module images on the macOS side using my own tools which produces an Intel hex file. For programming I use the Linux open source command line software from Microchip, compiled on macOS.

I use a PicKit-2 programmer because some users complained there were issues with the PicKit-3 programmer years ago (it was new at the time). This has probably been sorted out by now.

So it done entirely on the Mac side here.

Names are probably more catchy than number so I suppose it's for marketing reasons. Google does the same with Android.

Your fully Mac based toolchain is interesting. I tried to download the programming software from Microchip but it says that it's no longer available. Would you be willing to share your tool which produces Intel hex files?

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Jurgen Keller - 11-07-2019 06:29 PM

(11-06-2019 07:45 PM)PeterP Wrote: iirc though the original Clonix programmer had a RS232 interface. Do you use a USB to rs232 converter and have no trouble with the VM? I heard that the treatment of USB ports in VMs is anything but trivial (and I know I failed at some point in the past to get it working).

Forget about RS232, it's way too slow. USB works fine with VirtualBox, however, I have to plug in the programmer before I start the VM, otherwise it does not start up. That's a bit inconvenient but not a big issue (maybe just a configuration problem?).

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Jurgen Keller - 11-07-2019 08:01 PM

Published a first version, documentation still incomplete.
RB2INI on GitHub

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Sylvain Cote - 11-08-2019 01:32 AM

(11-06-2019 07:20 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote:
(11-06-2019 05:54 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: I have a RAMBOX that I have never used because the battery was depleted when I got it.
Currently the unit is in pieces and at some point will need to be restored after reassembling the unit.
Do you know if it's a 32K or a (bank-switched) 64K RAMBOX? The 32K is easier to re-initialize.

Actually, it seems that I have two RAMBOX'es !!! there were with my other vintage MLDL units (ERAMCO ESMLDL1, HHP-PE, HHP-16K, etc)
The first one is a RAMBOX32 that seems to be fully functional and the second one (currently in pieces) seems to be a RAMBOX64, but I will know for sure when it's back together.
When I insert the RAMBOX32 in a 41CX-HN and I do a CAT 2, I see "-RAMBOX 32" plus some other global labels loaded in one of the banks.
Reading the user manual, I have a hard time understanding the switches functionality.
For sure, I understand group A, but the explanation of Group B and Group C is not very clear to say the least.
Sylvain

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Sylvain Cote - 11-09-2019 03:13 AM

I finally got it, I had missed a key phrase that got me lost.

In my 32K unit,
1) the first two 4K blocks can be relocated at any pages (set to pages 8 & 9 by default)
2) the last six 4K blocks are hard wired to pages 10 to 15
3) all eight blocks can be protected (aka ROM) or not (aka QRAM)
4) all eight blocks can be activated ot not
5) the RAMBOX ROM reside in the first 4K block (assigned to page 8 by default)

The page 8 was left unprotected, I am lucky the RAMBOX OS seems to be working.

On my unit, the PG? function returns 16.34 (XROM . FN#) in X and "-RAMBOX 32" in ALPHA.
The rambox32.rom file included with ClonixConfig burned in a Clonix-D module at page 8, returns 31.34 in X and "-RAMBOX 32" in ALPHA.
In the RAMBOX users manual, their example returns 30.35 in X and "-RAMBOX 1B" in ALPHA.

Jürgen,

I will try to find the "-RAMBOX 1B" version, but in the meantime if I want to use the ClonixConfig version,
can I copy the ROM from the Clonix-D module to the second block of the RAMBOX, deactivate block 1 at page 8 and activate block 2 at page 9 ?

Sylvain

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - PeterP - 11-09-2019 08:19 PM

(11-07-2019 06:29 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote:
(11-06-2019 07:45 PM)PeterP Wrote: iirc though the original Clonix programmer had a RS232 interface. Do you use a USB to rs232 converter and have no trouble with the VM? I heard that the treatment of USB ports in VMs is anything but trivial (and I know I failed at some point in the past to get it working).
Forget about RS232, it's way too slow. USB works fine with VirtualBox, however, I have to plug in the programmer before I start the VM, otherwise it does not start up. That's a bit inconvenient but not a big issue (maybe just a configuration problem?).

Got it, thank you for the tip!

PeterP

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - PeterP - 11-09-2019 08:21 PM

(11-06-2019 11:48 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:
(11-06-2019 07:45 PM)PeterP Wrote: thank you Sylvain & Juergen, that is indeed very helpful. iirc though the original Clonix programmer had a RS232 interface. Do you use a USB to rs232 converter and have no trouble with the VM? I heard that the treatment of USB ports in VMs is anything but trivial (and I know I failed at some point in the past to get it working).

Thank you for your invaluable inputs!

Cheers

PeterP

Hello Peter,

I use this K150 USB programmer for my Clonix & NoV modules. (at $6.50 USD + $1.50 USD shipping this programmer is a real bargain)
The programmer chip is on socket allowing me to update the firmware if needed and it currently contains the correct version (v25) needed by ClonixConfig to work with Diego's modules.

Sylvain

Great tip, thank you Sylvain! Just ordered it, maybe I can get it to work. Would be good to get back into some coding... Maybe even extend the famous simulator with the labels from more modules...

Cheers

PeterP

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Jurgen Keller - 11-22-2019 04:31 PM

(11-09-2019 03:13 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: On my unit, the PG? function returns 16.34 (XROM . FN#) in X and "-RAMBOX 32" in ALPHA.
The rambox32.rom file included with ClonixConfig burned in a Clonix-D module at page 8, returns 31.34 in X and "-RAMBOX 32" in ALPHA.
In the RAMBOX users manual, their example returns 30.35 in X and "-RAMBOX 1B" in ALPHA.

I also noticed that there is a "-RAMBOX 32" and a "-RAMBOX 1B" variant. However, I've never analyzed what the difference is. I've also seen 32K RAMBOXes with OS/B from the 41CY. They run fine, although the bank switching functions (PG<>, PG01 and PG10) obviously don't have any effect.

(11-09-2019 03:13 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: I will try to find the "-RAMBOX 1B" version, but in the meantime if I want to use the ClonixConfig version,
can I copy the ROM from the Clonix-D module to the second block of the RAMBOX, deactivate block 1 at page 8 and activate block 2 at page 9 ?

I think I have one with the "-RAMBOX 1B" operating system. I have to dig it out and save the ROM image.

I think your approach should work, however, I've never tried it as the 32K RAMBOXes I've got were all running fine.

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Jurgen Keller - 11-22-2019 04:53 PM

In the meantime I also created a HP-41CY eraser module which overwrites both RAM banks of the 41CY, including the operating system (if not write protected). I implemented it also as a take-over ROM. The effect is drastic: you usually cannot turn on the 41CY anymore. If you plug in 4 x 8K ROMs into the ports it works again. This is a good test for the HP-41CY initialization module. Fortunately, it passed!

[Image: hp41cy-eraser.png]

I've also created a document where I described my findings related to the re-initialization process. You'll find it in the GitHub repository.

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Raymond Del Tondo - 11-22-2019 07:24 PM

(11-22-2019 04:31 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: I've also seen 32K RAMBOXes with OS/B from the 41CY. They run fine, although the bank switching functions (PG<>, PG01 and PG10) obviously don't have any effect.

Actually it's very likely those came from me in the one or other way;-)
It usually indicates a 32k RAM box was initialized using my CY-INIT ROM...
Since CY-INIT was meant to be used in real CY units with 64k,
there was no check whether the bank switch was successful.
It was the normal case in a CY, and thus the OS-A was written,
a bank switch was initialized, and OS-B was written afterwards.

There were plans (and notes in the src file) to add a suitable check,
but it was never implemented, although it's not too complicated.
Instead of it, I later made an RB-INIT ROM for 32k RAM boxes.
Of course the latter loaded the RAMBOX OS (mostly 2B, IIRC) to page 8...

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Jurgen Keller - 11-22-2019 09:20 PM

(11-22-2019 07:24 PM)Raymond Del Tondo Wrote:
(11-22-2019 04:31 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: I've also seen 32K RAMBOXes with OS/B from the 41CY. They run fine, although the bank switching functions (PG<>, PG01 and PG10) obviously don't have any effect.
Actually it's very likely those came from me in the one or other way;-)
It usually indicates a 32k RAM box was initialized using my CY-INIT ROM...
Since CY-INIT was meant to be used in real CY units with 64k,
there was no check whether the bank switch was successful.
It was the normal case in a CY, and thus the OS-A was written,
a bank switch was initialized, and OS-B was written afterwards.

There were plans (and notes in the src file) to add a suitable check,
but it was never implemented, although it's not too complicated.
Instead of it, I later made an RB-INIT ROM for 32k RAM boxes.
Of course the latter loaded the RAMBOX OS (mostly 2B, IIRC) to page 8...

Thanks for shedding some light on that. Indeed, such a check would not be difficult to implement. However, usually you know which kind of device you want to initialize. So the only advantage of such a smart initialization module would be that you only need one CLONIX instead of two.

I'm still wondering if there is a notable difference between "-RAMBOX 32" and "-RAMBOX 1B". Any idea?

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - HP-Collection - 12-07-2019 10:58 AM

Also ordered on of these. What is the white cable for?

(11-06-2019 11:48 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:
(11-06-2019 07:45 PM)PeterP Wrote: thank you Sylvain & Juergen, that is indeed very helpful. iirc though the original Clonix programmer had a RS232 interface. Do you use a USB to rs232 converter and have no trouble with the VM? I heard that the treatment of USB ports in VMs is anything but trivial (and I know I failed at some point in the past to get it working).

Thank you for your invaluable inputs!

Cheers

PeterP

Hello Peter,

I use this K150 USB programmer for my Clonix & NoV modules. (at $6.50 USD + $1.50 USD shipping this programmer is a real bargain)
The programmer chip is on socket allowing me to update the firmware if needed and it currently contains the correct version (v25) needed by ClonixConfig to work with Diego's modules.

Sylvain

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Sylvain Cote - 12-07-2019 02:22 PM

(12-07-2019 10:58 AM)HP-Collection Wrote: Also ordered on of these. What is the white cable for?

The white cable is for the In-Circuit Serial Programming (ICSP) connector. The Microchip documentation for ICSP is available HERE.
You do not need it for Clonix operation, only the USB cable is needed.

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Sylvain Cote - 12-07-2019 07:31 PM

(11-22-2019 09:20 PM)Jurgen Keller Wrote: I'm still wondering if there is a notable difference between "-RAMBOX 32" and "-RAMBOX 1B". Any idea?

Code:

+ ---------------- + ---------------- + ---------------- + ---------------- +

|    XROM 16,XX    |    XROM 31,XX    |    XROM 30,XX    |    XROM 31,XX    |

+ ---------------- + ---------------- + ---------------- + ---------------- +

| XR  FUNCTION     | XR  FUNCTION     | XR  FUNCTION     | XR  FUNCTION     |

+ --  ------------ + --  ------------ + --  ------------ + --  ------------ +

Code:

| 00  -RAMBOX 32   | 00  -RAMBOX 32   | 00  -RAMBOX 1B   | 00  -RAMBOX a/b  |

| 01  BUFLNG?      | 01  BUFLNG?      | 01  BUFLNG?      | 01  BUFLNG?      |

| 02  CLLSTFL      | 02  CLLSTFL      | 02  CLLSTFL      | 02  CLLSTFL      |

| 03  CLPG         | 03  CLPG         | 03  CLPG         | 03  CLPG         |

| 04  CLRFL        | 04  CLRFL        | 04  CLRFL        | 04  CLRFL        |

| 05  COPYPG       | 05  COPYPG       | 05  COPYPG       | 05  COPYPG       |

| 06  CRDIR        | 06  CRDIR        | 06  CRDIR        | 06  CRDIR        |

| 07  CRFLBUF      | 07  CRFLBUF      | 07  CRFLBUF      | 07  CRFLBUF      |

Code:

| 08  CRFLDTA      | 08  CRFLDTA      | 08  CRFLDTA      | 08  CRFLDTA      |

| 09  CRFLKEY      | 09  CRFLKEY      | 09  CRFLKEY      | 09  CRFLKEY      |

| 10  ENDPG        | 10  ENDPG        | 10  ENDPG        | 10  ENDPG        |

| 11  FNC?         | 11  FNC?         | 11  FNC?         | 11  FNC?         |

| 12  FRBYT?       | 12  FRBYT?       | 12  FRBYT?       | 12  FRBYT?       |

| 13  GTBUF        | 13  GTBUF        | 13  GTBUF        | 13  GTBUF        |

| 14  GTKEY        | 14  GTKEY        | 14  GTKEY        | 14  GTKEY        |

| 15  GTREG        | 15  GTREG        | 15  GTREG        | 15  GTREG        |

Code:

| 16  GTREGX       | 16  GTREGX       | 16  GTREGX       | 16  GTREGX       |

| 17  GTREGXY      | 17  GTREGXY      | 17  GTREGXY      | 17  GTREGXY      |

| 18  INITPG       | 18  INITPG       | 18  INITPG       | 18  INITPG       |

| 19  KEYAS?       | 19  KEYAS?       | 19  KEYAS?       | 19  KEYAS?       |

| 20  LDBUF        | 20  LDBUF        | 20  LDBUF        | 20  LDBUF        |

| 21  LDKEY        | 21  LDKEY        | 21  LDKEY        | 21  LDKEY        |

| 22  LDPGM        | 22  LDPGM        | 22  LDPGM        | 22  LDPGM        |

| 23  LDREG        | 23  LDREG        | 23  LDREG        | 23  LDREG        |

Code:

| 24  LDREGX       | 24  LDREGX       | 24  LDREGX       | 24  LDREGX       |

| 25  LDREGXY      | 25  LDREGXY      | 25  LDREGXY      | 25  LDREGXY      |

| 26  PG?          | 26  PG?          | 26  PG?          | 26  PG?          |

| 27  PGSUM        | 27  PGSUM        | 27  PGSUM        | 27  PGSUM        |

| 28  PTCT         | 28  PTCT         | 28  PTCT         | 28  PTCT         |

| 29  READPG       | 29  READPG       | 29  READPG       | 29  READPG       |

| 30  SETPRV       | 30  SETPRV       | 30  SETPRV       | 30  SETPRV       |

| 31  UNPTCT       | 31  UNPTCT       | 31  UNPTCT       | 31  UNPTCT       |

Code:

| 32  WRTPG        | 32  WRTPG        | 32  WRTPG        | 32  WRTPG        |

| 33  XQ>XR        | 33  XQ>XR        | 33  XQ>XR        | 33  XQ>XR        |

|                  |                  | 34  'PRFAT       | 34  BLKA         |

|                  |                  |                  | 35  PG01         |

|                  |                  |                  | 36  PG10         |

|                  |                  |                  | 37  BLKB         |

+ ---------------- + ---------------- + ---------------- + ---------------- +

PRFAT Listing
[Image: PRFAT.jpg]

RE: HP-41CY re-initialization ROM - Sylvain Cote - 12-24-2019 08:18 PM

I just received my first 41CY (64K) with -RAMBOX 64b ROM. Smile

I have the manual for the RAMBox unit but I do not have one for the 41CY in English.
What are the instructions that does what the switches do on the RAMBox ?