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+--- Thread: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch (/thread-15642.html)
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Massimo Gnerucci - 10-19-2020 06:16 AM
(10-19-2020 04:12 AM)Monte Dalrymple Wrote: 2-key rollover doesn't work properly.
press & hold "3", then press "1", then release "3", then release "1" result: 331
press & hold "3", then press "9", then release "3", then release "9" result :399
on a real 41 (or 41CL) you get 31 in the first case, 39 in the second case.
2-key rollover is hard to get right. It took me a while on the 41CL.
Monte
Already reported, during beta phase, where appropriate.
Still there.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Dave Britten - 10-19-2020 11:39 AM
Yup, 2-key rollover very much needs to be fixed. From what I can tell, it was one of the big advances of the Nut machines (Voyagers as well), so there's no excuse to not properly support it. The DM42 does it - although there was a regression there back when they rewrote the keyboard scanning to eliminate bounce - so the hardware is definitely capable.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - markhen - 10-20-2020 07:12 PM
I received my DM41X last week - S/N 00431. Took about 2 weeks to arrive (California/LA) - thank you SwissMicros! I've had a DM42 for a while, S/N 331. Also the credit-card SwissMicros 15c clone.
I "had to have" the DM42 when it came out, as it represented one of the Golden Age calcs on a modern platform, with enhancements. I've never been a 42s fan (sorry!), mostly due to the terrible screens on that model (I have old eyes). But I like the DM42 a lot, and it's in my regular calc rotation. The screen is fabulous, the package sleek. I did the famous "Logan keyboard fix" and this improved the feel and function of the keyboard to where I have no complaints (at least none that stop me using it).
My first HP was a 25, my second a 41C - these calcs "set the standard" for me! So when the DM41X came out I was excited to grab one. Following are my early experiences with this beauty:
Everything great about the DM42 is here - display, form-factor, looks, battery life etc. Built very well, I think they will last a long, long time, and are largely repairable. Great start.
The keyboard is different to my DM42, in subtle, and visible ways. The key tops are more angled/slanted than my DM42, and the keytop legends are bigger, bolder and clearer (good!).
The DM41X keys have a slightly louder "click", not clear to me how much this is just new DM41X vs used DM42 ? Usability of the keyboard is every bit as good as the "Loganized DM42", but I don't think it's dramatically different? Very usable. It's not like a original 41 (sigh) or a Classic or a Woodstock, but it's good.
My main complaint about both models (DM42 and DM41X) is that they both "rock" side to side when used on a flat surface. The back (metal) covers are curved, enough so the nice plastic feet aren't in the same plane, and the "belly" of the back cover contacts the surface! I see posts about taking some of the bow out by removing the cover and using finger pressure, and I've done this to both units, but the rocking persists. I am going to try more, because this really is annoying when using the calcs on the desk.
All things considered, I'm loving the DM41X, it's great to have a "41" back on my desk (I have my original 41C but its power switch became unreliable a while back). I recommend the DM41X and the DM42 wholeheartedly, great machines and good value for money. Thanks again SM!
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Dave Britten - 10-20-2020 08:00 PM
(10-20-2020 07:12 PM)markhen Wrote: My main complaint about both models (DM42 and DM41X) is that they both "rock" side to side when used on a flat surface. The back (metal) covers are curved, enough so the nice plastic feet aren't in the same plane, and the "belly" of the back cover contacts the surface! I see posts about taking some of the bow out by removing the cover and using finger pressure, and I've done this to both units, but the rocking persists. I am going to try more, because this really is annoying when using the calcs on the desk.
I've noticed that too, though more with my new DM41X than the DM42 I bought at the end of 2017.
The metal is pretty thick, and I can't bend it meaningfully with my fingers, so I put only the back shell on the floor with the printed back facing up and stepped on it with my heel, particularly between the pairs of rubber feet. (I weigh around 150 lbs, so your results may vary.) It's a definite improvement, but it feels like it could still use a bit more work.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - JurgenRo - 10-21-2020 07:13 PM
(10-20-2020 08:00 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:Mine too. I just put a thin cloth underneath and everything works perfectly. Really great machine! Thanks a lot SwissMicros!(10-20-2020 07:12 PM)markhen Wrote: My main complaint about both models (DM42 and DM41X) is that they both "rock" side to side when used on a flat surface. The back (metal) covers are curved, enough so the nice plastic feet aren't in the same plane, and the "belly" of the back cover contacts the surface! I see posts about taking some of the bow out by removing the cover and using finger pressure, and I've done this to both units, but the rocking persists. I am going to try more, because this really is annoying when using the calcs on the desk.
I've noticed that too, though more with my new DM41X than the DM42 I bought at the end of 2017.
The metal is pretty thick, and I can't bend it meaningfully with my fingers, so I put only the back shell on the floor with the printed back facing up and stepped on it with my heel, particularly between the pairs of rubber feet. (I weigh around 150 lbs, so your results may vary.) It's a definite improvement, but it feels like it could still use a bit more work.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - johanw - 10-21-2020 07:48 PM
(10-19-2020 04:12 AM)Monte Dalrymple Wrote: 2-key rollover doesn't work properly.I tried that with my DM15 and DM15L, both give 331 in the fist case and 339 in the second. I see the 9 coming when I release the 3. I'd never thought of trying this.
press & hold "3", then press "1", then release "3", then release "1" result: 331
press & hold "3", then press "9", then release "3", then release "9" result :399
on a real 41 (or 41CL) you get 31 in the first case, 39 in the second case.
2-key rollover is hard to get right. It took me a while on the 41CL.
Monte
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - jthole - 11-29-2020 04:53 AM
I have a beta unit, on which Michael recently replaced the domes. I sent it to him because one row of keys was failing completely, and I didn’t want to tinker with the dome foil myself.
I just got it back two days ago. Hard to say if the keyboard feels different (I have used my 11C mostly the past weeks, so I lost the finger memory of the DM41X Beta). But the keys register very securely now, and also the “roll over” test works flawlessly. One remark though; I typically use my calculators handheld, and not on a desk.
NB: this was NOT a keyboard replacement! Michael only replaced the dome foil. As far as I know, this is still a DM41X Beta keyboard. I also don’t have a production unit to compare.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - MinkLib - 02-28-2024 03:27 PM
Re the glamourous Type C USB plug: one should be careful what one wishes for..
On a mechanical level, having 24 pins instead of 5 is not an improvement in a tiny serial socket. Seagate even has a special warning note about keeping debris out of the complicated Type C plug/socket with compressed air, as does Microsoft. They also suggest covering the plug hole with a cover or sock - try that on a pocket calculator in daily use..
A lot of SmartPhone owners are only using Type C USB to charge the battery, as a result some Type C cables are confusingly made for power only, not data.
The 'all-embracing' Type C spec. and subsequent development since invention in 2012 is a mess.
See for example https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/8q33o4/its_2018_and_usb_typec_is_still_a_mess_android/
and 2023 updates on continuing data protocol problems.
All this for a reversible power plug in many cases - a simple power jack would better help those clumsy SmartPhone users who can't cope with the Micro B USB orientation. The Type C socket has no business being fitted to an advanced programmable calculator for normal serial data I/O.
Cleverly the Micro USB is designed to eventually fail at the plug rather than the expensive socket built-in to the laptop or calculator circuit board. A $5 cable change looks good at that point.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - MinkLib - 02-28-2024 04:29 PM
Oh and get ready to buy brand-new laptop, just to talk to your calculator..
"However, the major disadvantage of the USB-C is that it is not fully compatible with older versions of USB. To convert an existing USB 2.0 device to Type-C, the designer must add two pull-down resistors to the CC pins and route the USB D+/D- signals to both positions on the Type-C receptacle."
Methinks SwissMicro made a wise decision to stay with Micro B USB in this case.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Maximilian Hohmann - 02-28-2024 04:32 PM
Hello!
(02-28-2024 03:27 PM)MinkLib Wrote: Re the glamourous Type C USB plug: one should be careful what one wishes for..
As far as we Eurpeans are concerned, the time of wishing is over. By the end of this year, no portable electronic device with anything but a USB-C connector may be sold within the Euroean Union. I don't know if Switzerland, the home of Swiss Micros, or the UK will also adopt that rule.
(02-28-2024 03:27 PM)MinkLib Wrote: A lot of SmartPhone owners are only using Type C USB to charge the battery, as a result some Type C cables are confusingly made for power only, not data.
Which is actually a good thing because there are more and more cases of data theft and hacks when connecting phones, tablets and notebook to manipulated public charging sockets. A power only cable offers the best protection against that.
Personally I am using USB-C with my Android smartphone since about five years and the similar Lightning connector with Apple devices since about ten years with no problems whatsoever. I don't ever want to go back to anything else.
Regards
Max
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Eric Rechlin - 02-28-2024 05:34 PM
(02-28-2024 04:29 PM)MinkLib Wrote: Oh and get ready to buy brand-new laptop, just to talk to your calculator..
"However, the major disadvantage of the USB-C is that it is not fully compatible with older versions of USB. To convert an existing USB 2.0 device to Type-C, the designer must add two pull-down resistors to the CC pins and route the USB D+/D- signals to both positions on the Type-C receptacle."
Any electrical conversion necessary would be in the USB-C to USB-A adapter so there would be no reason to buy a new computer (laptop or otherwise).
(02-28-2024 04:29 PM)MinkLib Wrote: Methinks SwissMicro made a wise decision to stay with Micro B USB in this case.
Unlikely. My guess is they just have plenty of Micro B USB boards in inventory and don't want them to go to waste. Once they are gone I'm sure they won't make anymore.
Micro USB needs to go away. USB-C is the only connector I want for portable devices. I refuse to buy anything costing more than $20 with Micro USB anymore; if the manufacturers want my business, they need to update their products.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Peet - 02-28-2024 05:57 PM
(02-28-2024 04:32 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote: As far as we Eurpeans are concerned, the time of wishing is over. By the end of this year, no portable electronic device with anything but a USB-C connector may be sold within the Euroean Union.
Don't worry, it's not about data cables, just charging cables and only a certain group of devices are affected, Calculators are not on this list.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Maximilian Hohmann - 02-28-2024 06:10 PM
Hello!
(02-28-2024 05:57 PM)Peet Wrote: Don't worry, it's not about data cables, just charging cables and only a certain group of devices are affected, Calculators are not on this list.
I don't worry about USB-C. I rather worry that there will be manufacturers who still use something else because their device is not on that list... Right now I have an HP Prime and a Ti Nspire on my desk which use different kinds of small USB connectors, forcing me to have to different cables for similar calculators. This nonsense must finish once and forever.
Every cheap little electronic gadget that I have bought from Aliexpress during the last years, from 2-Euro-flashlight to 20 Euro Geiger counter came with built in lithium battery and USB-C charging socket. One cable is enough for all of them!
Regards
Max
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - KeithB - 02-28-2024 08:03 PM
The prime uses a standard mini-B.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Eric Rechlin - 02-28-2024 08:19 PM
(02-28-2024 08:03 PM)KeithB Wrote: The prime uses a standard mini-B.
No, the Prime uses a standard Micro B, which made sense when it was released in 2013. The 50g, on the other hand, uses Mini B, which made sense when it was released in 2006 (and also for the 49g+ when it was released in 2003). But that was all over a decade ago so it's understandable -- USB-C didn't really take off until about 5 or 6 years ago. Mini USB is the worst (bulky and has the components most likely to wear out in the port rather than the cable), Micro USB is better (the wear part is moved to the cable and it's more compact, but the cables tend to be quite fragile), and USB-C is best (reversible and also more durable than Micro USB).
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - brouhaha - 02-29-2024 11:00 PM
(02-28-2024 04:32 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote: [Using a USB charge-only cable] is actually a good thing because there are more and more cases of data theft and hacks when connecting phones, tablets and notebook to manipulated public charging sockets. A power only cable offers the best protection against that.
I agree with the advice. There are proof-of-concept demonstrations, but I have yet to find a single _documented_ case of this actually happening in the real world. Better safe than sorry, though.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - rprosperi - 03-01-2024 01:25 AM
(02-29-2024 11:00 PM)brouhaha Wrote:(02-28-2024 04:32 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote: [Using a USB charge-only cable] is actually a good thing because there are more and more cases of data theft and hacks when connecting phones, tablets and notebook to manipulated public charging sockets. A power only cable offers the best protection against that.
I agree with the advice. There are proof-of-concept demonstrations, but I have yet to find a single _documented_ case of this actually happening in the real world. Better safe than sorry, though.
I use these, and give them to all my family members that travel; they just plug-in their iPhones anywhere they see a handy charging port. It may not be widely documented, but it does happen and in the security world is well-documented, but with these, it doesn't matter.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T0DW3F8?th=1
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - brouhaha - 03-01-2024 09:45 AM
(03-01-2024 01:25 AM)rprosperi Wrote: It may not be widely documented, but it does happen and in the security world is well-documented, but with these, it doesn't matter.
My point was that even in the security world it is NOT well-documented. Proof of concept is well-documented, but occurences in the wild are not. Fear mongerers are constantly saying that this is happening more and more, yet they can't actually point to a SINGLE documented case.
But still, I completely agree with you and Maximillian, better safe than sorry.
I usually do not carry a power-only cable when I travel; instead I carry my own chargers, and power adapters when necessary. Most airports that I've passed through provide both AC mains and USB, so I use the AC mains. This also protects against shoddy USB power sources that could easily have a fault and deliver too high a voltage. The world is full of shoddy (and unsafe!) USB chargers. I'm very particular about what USB chargers I will buy. Major, well-known brands should be fine, but the cheap brands you've never heard of should be avoided. Often they don't have a UL listing, have a fraudulent UL listing, or have changed the design for cost reduction after getting the listing (which is also fraudulent).
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - rprosperi - 03-01-2024 01:33 PM
(03-01-2024 09:45 AM)brouhaha Wrote:(03-01-2024 01:25 AM)rprosperi Wrote: It may not be widely documented, but it does happen and in the security world is well-documented, but with these, it doesn't matter.
My point was that even in the security world it is NOT well-documented. Proof of concept is well-documented, but occurences in the wild are not. Fear mongerers are constantly saying that this is happening more and more, yet they can't actually point to a SINGLE documented case.
But still, I completely agree with you and Maximillian, better safe than sorry.
I usually do not carry a power-only cable when I travel; instead I carry my own chargers, and power adapters when necessary. Most airports that I've passed through provide both AC mains and USB, so I use the AC mains. This also protects against shoddy USB power sources that could easily have a fault and deliver too high a voltage. The world is full of shoddy (and unsafe!) USB chargers. I'm very particular about what USB chargers I will buy. Major, well-known brands should be fine, but the cheap brands you've never heard of should be avoided. Often they don't have a UL listing, have a fraudulent UL listing, or have changed the design for cost reduction after getting the listing (which is also fraudulent).
Me too, I use only original device chargers, these days all complex, high-current chargers with 3-4 voltages that adapt to different needs (e.g. slow-charging overnight, etc.) but most folks carry only cables and/or treat all chargers as if they were the same, so I equip them with the power-only connectors. It's a good thing they are bright red as much easier to not get lost or left behind.
RE: SwissMicros Announces DM41X Launch - Eric Rechlin - 03-01-2024 05:59 PM
That data blocker is an interesting concept, but fast charging relies on the data lines, so your charging will then be limited to probably 1 amp at 5 volts (or maybe 2 amps at 5 volts in some limited cases) which will be quite slow.
I am not too concerned with it since most of the time if there is a data connection it would rely on you confirming the popup asking to make a data connection to your phone, so the only way it otherwise could access your phone is if it exploits a not-yet-fixed vulnerability.
I normally bring my own charger so I can get QuickCharge which public chargers generally don't have, but if all I have available is a USB port I'm just going to plug in. I don't wear an aluminum foil hat either.