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+--- Thread: WP 34S --> WP 31S (/thread-576.html)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-14-2014 05:46 AM
(02-13-2014 10:21 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:and(02-13-2014 09:28 PM)walter b Wrote: According to the sorting order defined in the Index of Operations, Greek letters immediately follow after Latin Z on the WP 34S (and will do the same on the WP 31S). On the keyboard, the Latin letters are printed in capitals since everybody knows how the lower case letters look. The Greek letters we use on the WP 31S are alpha, gamma, Delta, epsilon, lambda, mu (my), Sigma & sigma, and Phi. There are five free locations on the keyboard. If we continue with capitals, Alpha, Epsilon, and Mu (My) would look identical to A, E, and M, respectively, so we should avoid these by printing only Gamma, Delta, Lambda, Sigma, and Phi. Or should we switch to lower case for Greek and print alpha, lambda, mu (my), sigma, and phi? Can we assume the target audience knowing γ corresponds to Γ, λ to Λ, σ to Σ, and φ to Φ?
I'm willing to be pragmatic about the greek letters and mix it up. Use lower-case ones where they match the catalogue names and use capitol Sigma for sigma. I think using all upper-case greek letters is confusing. However, capitol Sigman should be capitalized since that is the way it appears in the catalogues. However, I think going through the wp-31s catalogues carefully is good idea since some of the greek letters may not be needed -- and maybe some other special non-greek character would be helpful.
(02-14-2014 12:50 AM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote: I also noticed that % and the degree symbol might be handy in some of the catalogues.
Hmmh, "willing to be pragmatic about the greek letters" is not sufficient - knowing the praxis (sic!) sufficiently would help.
It is as I mentioned above: we need ... W, X, Y, Z, α, γ, Δ, ε, λ, µ, Σ + σ, and Φ. We also use ° (which is sorted as a superscript zero), %, -, ∞, and |. Now please look at pp. 85, 152f, and 155 of the printed manual, at your WP 34S, and at the pdf in this very thread here, read, think, and check:- ° is no problem at all for obvious reasons.
- α appears only once in CONST. Knowing α comes after Z, α shouldn't be a problem either.
- γ appears more than once in CONST. Should appear on the keyboard IMHO.
- Δ appears only once in MORE. No problem.
- ε appears only once in CONST. No problem.
- λ and µ appear more than once in CONST.
- Σ is employed frequently in STAT, and σ appears only once in CONST.
- Φ appears more than once in CONST.
- - and ∞ are used only once each in CONST. ∞ is the last character there, and - is the second last.
- % and | are used only once each in MORE. | is the last character there, and % is the second last (the first after Z).
d:-I
1 [rant]Feel free to also take into account the average level of education. Don't forget a Capitol stands in Wash. D.C., while a capital letter is something different. Oh, why can't the English ... (learn to spell 'Greek', for another example). [/rant]
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-14-2014 08:07 AM
Walter,
(02-14-2014 05:46 AM)walter b Wrote: Now, instead of making lazy managerial statements, assess the situation and compare the demands with the five keyboard locations available. Then please come up with a proper suggestion.
Okay... A bit more rigor is called for. I used the catalogues (as currently implemented by Sanjeev) and tallied up how many times each menu used each special character and came up with this table:
The total count of occurrences is in the second column (#). Note that I've lumped the count for upper and lower case versions of sigma and phi. (The value in the bottom right corner is just 1. I must have had my cursor in that cell when I did the screen capture of this image.)
Which confirms most of your points. A few discussion items:
- Sigma appears most frequently, so having it on the keyboard is probably useful, so I vote for leaving it where it is.
- There are two letters (mu and sigma) that appear most frequently. The other 6 most frequent letters or special characters appear 3 or 4 times. I feel like the difference between 3 and 4 occurrences was not significant.
- So if we cannot get all 7 special characters with 3 or more uses (other than sigma) in the remaining openings, how do we chose any of them?
- My inclination is not include any of them, which is in line with your original layout.
Also, I still feel like making an exception for the degree symbol for the CONV menu. If you use a conversion that is away from the beginning and want to do a temperature conversion, press the degree symbol and the odds are fair that you will land on exactly the conversion you need (or can get there very quickly using only "Down"). If you press "A", then you have to go "Up" to get the conversion you want, which is not as convenient as going down.
So here is the layout I suggest:
This leaves 3 potential spots open. The location of the degree symbol and Omega could be changed. I think rather than trying to decide which 3 of the 6 or so frequently used special characters to add to the keyboard background, maybe it would be best to leave them empty and make the keyboard a little less cluttered.
-Jonathan
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-14-2014 03:58 PM
Walter,
I still would like to hear your reasoning on moving the shift key down one key. I looked at the reorganization of the other functions to group things more cleanly. I'll admit I do not understand your logic completely, but the arrangement seems more consistent so I am happy to accept that change. I like the way that most of the catalogue keys are closer to the shift key.
But I do not understand why you moved the shift key downwards. It seems that this requires more finger movement for shift-combinations. I think that its previous location (on the same row as 4, 5, 6, *) is more logical in this respect.
-Jonathan
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-14-2014 08:25 PM
Jonathan,
About your table: I obviously missed χ and ω
- thanks for your head up! 
Almost always four eyes detect more than two. OTOH, please note that ε is a lower case epsilon while Σ is a capital sigma and σ a lower case sigma. And neither ε nor φ nor Φ are part of STAT on WP 31S as can be seen in the pdf file in this thread. And # in CONST makes sense in programming only.Anyway I've to update my list posted earlier as follows:
- ° is no problem at all for obvious reasons.
- α appears only once in CONST. Knowing α comes after Z, α shouldn't be a problem either.
- γ appears 3 times in CONST. Should appear on the keyboard IMHO.
- Δ appears only once in MORE. No problem.
- ε appears only once in CONST. No problem.
- λ appears 3 times in CONST.
- µ appears 7 times in CONST.
- Σ is employed 13 times in STAT, and σ appears once in CONST.
- Φ appears twice in CONST.
- χ appears 4 times in STAT.
- ω appears only once in CONST.
- - and ∞ are used only once each in CONST. ∞ is the last character there, and - is the second last.
- % and | are used only once each in MORE. | is the last character there, and % is the second last (the first after Z).
d:-)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-14-2014 08:29 PM
(02-14-2014 08:25 PM)walter b Wrote: ...please note that ε is a lower case epsilon while Σ is a capital sigma and σ a lower case sigma.
Oops! I am an engineer and missed both of those. Back to remedial Greek!
I look forward to seeing your update!
-Jonathan
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-14-2014 08:45 PM
(02-12-2014 11:14 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote: I still would like to hear your reasoning on moving the shift key down one key. ... It seems that this requires more finger movement for shift-combinations. I think that its previous location (on the same row as 4, 5, 6, *) is more logical in this respect.
For minimum finger travel, [f] should be placed where [8] is now. Obviously we can't do that.
Next best location would be where [▼] is now. Remember we us [▼] for RDOWN, too, so we shouldn't separate [▼] from [ENTER].
Next best location would be where [->] is now. This, however, would move [->] further away from the green set of modes it is used with (e.g. in ->RAD etc.).
Next best location of [f] is where it sits now. Which is - as another forumer pointed out - the position the younger members here think being traditional (since they know just the Pioneers).
d:-)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-14-2014 09:30 PM
(02-14-2014 08:45 PM)walter b Wrote: 1. For minimum finger travel, [f] should be placed where [8] is now. Obviously we can't do that.
2. Next best location would be where [▼] is now. Remember we us [▼] for RDOWN, too, so we shouldn't separate [▼] from [ENTER].
3. Next best location would be where [->] is now. This, however, would move [->] further away from the green set of modes it is used with (e.g. in ->RAD etc.).
4. Next best location of [f] is where it sits now. Which is - as another forumer pointed out - the position the younger members here think being traditional (since they know just the Pioneers).
Thank you for explaining this. I agree with your reasoning on items 1 and 2.
It seems to me the essential trade-off is between items 3 and 4. Should the shift key be closer to the center of the calculator? Or should the [->] be closer to the center to help the folks doing degree/radian conversions (primarily)? My feeling is that the shift key is going to be used much more than the [->] key and therefore should be closer to the center. Therefore I think the shift key should be on the row with 4, 5, 6, and *. There is a secondary advantage for this configuration: Since there is no unshifted [Up] key, it will be more convenient going up in the menus if the shift key is next to the [Down] key. That way a person should be able to do "Up" faster. Having to jump over the [->] key to do shift and back to the [Down] key to get "Up" seems a bit inefficient.
Regarding the pioneer aficionados, I do not think this calculator is really aimed at them. Right?
-Jonathan
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-14-2014 10:12 PM
Suggestion: put γ below [-], λ below [0], µ below [.], Σ below [Σ+], Φ below [+], and ° below [->]. Opinions?
d:-)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-14-2014 10:44 PM
(02-14-2014 10:12 PM)walter b Wrote: Suggestion: put γ below [-], λ below [0], µ below [.], Σ below [Σ+], Φ below [+], and ° below [->]. Opinions?
Sounds good to me.
-Jonathan
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Sanjeev Visvanatha - 02-15-2014 01:44 AM
My own $0.02 CAD.
Looking back at many popular HP RPN calculators, the Shift key(s) are either placed adjacent to ON (e.g. Pioneers, Voyagers), above ENTER (e.g. HP-41, HP-67) or top Right (HP-35). Adjacent in this context means either above, or beside ON, as the case may be due to the orientation of the keyboard.
I can take a stab at guessing why this was the case in each instance. I am sure this has been done here before. Better shift positions were possible in layouts with power switches/rockers, I believe.
I like Walter's latest layout. I will wait until the dust settles until I modify the code.
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-15-2014 08:49 AM
(02-15-2014 01:44 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote: Looking back at many popular HP RPN calculators, the Shift key(s) are either placed adjacent to ON (e.g. Pioneers, Voyagers), above ENTER (e.g. HP-41, HP-67) or top Right (HP-35). Adjacent in this context means either above, or beside ON, as the case may be due to the orientation of the keyboard.
I can take a stab at guessing why this was the case in each instance. I am sure this has been done here before. Better shift positions were possible in layouts with power switches/rockers, I believe.
I like Walter's latest layout. I will wait until the dust settles until I modify the code.
OK, here we go once more:
d:-)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - CR Haeger - 02-15-2014 01:53 PM
(02-15-2014 08:49 AM)walter b Wrote:(02-15-2014 01:44 AM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote: Looking back at many popular HP RPN calculators, the Shift key(s) are either placed adjacent to ON (e.g. Pioneers, Voyagers), above ENTER (e.g. HP-41, HP-67) or top Right (HP-35). Adjacent in this context means either above, or beside ON, as the case may be due to the orientation of the keyboard.
I can take a stab at guessing why this was the case in each instance. I am sure this has been done here before. Better shift positions were possible in layouts with power switches/rockers, I believe.
I like Walter's latest layout. I will wait until the dust settles until I modify the code.
OK, here we go once more:
d:-)
Maybe dumb question -are the DEG and RAD (shift yellow) used to set system to DEG or RAD directly? If so, perhaps consider combining this into one DEG/RAD switch key. I would expect the 360, RAD screen annunciation to guide the users.
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-15-2014 03:24 PM
(02-15-2014 01:53 PM)CR Haeger Wrote: Maybe dumb question -are the DEG and RAD (shift yellow) used to set system to DEG or RAD directly? If so, perhaps consider combining this into one DEG/RAD switch key. I would expect the 360, RAD screen annunciation to guide the users.
There are no dumb questions. DEG and RAD have a double function like they have on the WP 34S.
- Pressing [f] [DEG] or [f] [RAD] will set DEG or RAD, respectively.
- Pressing [->] [DEG] or [->] [RAD] will convert x from RADians to DEGrees or vice versa, respectively.
d:-)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-15-2014 04:35 PM
(02-15-2014 01:53 PM)CR Haeger Wrote: Maybe dumb question -are the DEG and RAD (shift yellow) used to set system to DEG or RAD directly? If so, perhaps consider combining this into one DEG/RAD switch key. I would expect the 360, RAD screen annunciation to guide the users.
Part of the reason for separate RAD/DEG keys is to allow the ->RAD and ->DEG functions to change X to RAD or DEG (regardless of which mode the calculator is in). Obviously, you need separate keys for that.
-Jonathan
P.S. Looks like Walter beat me to this answer!
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Marcus von Cube - 02-16-2014 11:54 AM
I've an idea for quick catalog access which might be worth considering:
Just omit all Greek letters from the keyboard and change the sort order instead:
A, a, Α, α,
B, b, Β, β,
...
Put the degree symbol on the dot because it looks similar.
On the 34S, shift can be held down. The implementation of the keyboard driver should do the same on the 31S. This makes it relatively easy to repeatedly go up in a catalog or R↑ if the shift key is on the opposite side of the keyboard for two finger access.
Another, remotely related remark:
We should color code the letters which are mapped to registers or we could even allow all letters for register names. So we can have 26 general purpose registers if we force prefixing access to stack registers with a dot or with some other key to distinguish it from the gp register of the same name. The display would be lowercase for stack registers and uppercase for gp registers.
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-16-2014 02:40 PM
(02-16-2014 11:54 AM)Marcus von Cube Wrote: I've an idea for quick catalog access which might be worth considering:
Just omit all Greek letters from the keyboard and change the sort order instead:
A, a, Α, α,
B, b, Β, β,
...
You stop where it's beginning to become interesting. Changing sort order according to your suggestion doesn't help too much in real life IMHO - we've got a lot of commands starting with S/Σ still and create a big set with m/µ. And by throwing Latin and Greek into one pot: shall we put γ to c or to g? χ to c or to h?
About your further suggestions: Depends how strict we are with the 31S being a subset of the 34S. Anyway, we've got auto-repeat for ▼ on the 34S and we can benefit from it in the small catalogs of the 31S.
BTW, we talk about a non-programmable scientific. Thus, ten numbered registers R0 ... R9 plus I, J, and K should do for all real life applications, taking into account the huge set of prestored constants and the (optional) eight level stack.
d:-)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-17-2014 01:42 AM
Hi Walter,
(02-15-2014 08:49 AM)walter b Wrote: OK, here we go once more:
It seems reasonable, so I suggest you go ahead and commit it to the branch and encourage Sanjeev to move on.
-Jonathan
P.S. Even though I think this is settled, I cannot resist throwing out another idea. (Please be patient with me!). I feel like the arrow key is of limited usefulness in this incarnation. What about making it a shift-key (perhaps shift-7). That way RAD-> could be done by holding the shift down and pressing 7 and then 8 before releasing the shift. key. That would be reasonably efficient and not much worse than pressing [->][shift][8]. That would allow us to put the [Up] arrow on a key top. Not sure where to put the "MORE" menu...perhaps shift-Up and move "show" to shift-down?
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-17-2014 12:19 PM
(02-17-2014 01:42 AM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote: I feel like the arrow key is of limited usefulness in this incarnation. What about making it a shift-key (perhaps shift-7). That way RAD-> could be done by holding the shift down and pressing 7 and then 8 before releasing the shift. key. That would be reasonably efficient and not much worse than pressing [->][shift][8]. That would allow us to put the [Up] arrow on a key top. Not sure where to put the "MORE" menu...perhaps shift-Up and move "show" to shift-down?
Some answers:
- RAD-> is not part of the WP 31S function set yet.
- Who presses [->] [f] [8] ? Why? I'd press [->] [8] instead.
- Consequence: I'd leave [->] unshifted as is.
d:-)
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - Jonathan Cameron - 02-17-2014 03:21 PM
(02-17-2014 12:19 PM)walter b Wrote: Some answers:
- RAD-> is not part of the WP 31S function set yet.
- Who presses [->] [f] [8] ? Why? I'd press [->] [8] instead.
- Consequence: I'd leave [->] unshifted as is.
My fingers seem to be mistyping again. I meant ->RAD and ->DEG. What other functions is the [->] key used for on this calculator? And you are right: it is [f][8] vs [f][7][8] (if -> is made a shift key).
-Jonathan
RE: WP 34S --> WP 31S - walter b - 02-17-2014 04:00 PM
(02-17-2014 03:21 PM)Jonathan Cameron Wrote:(02-17-2014 12:19 PM)walter b Wrote:
- RAD-> is not part of the WP 31S function set yet.
- Who presses [->] [f] [8] ? Why? I'd press [->] [8] instead.
- Consequence: I'd leave [->] unshifted as is.
My fingers seem to be mistyping again. I meant ->RAD and ->DEG. What other functions is the [->] key used for on this calculator? And you are right: it is [f][8] vs [f][7][8] (if -> is made a shift key).
Better control your fingers
For the answer to your question, please read the PDF mentioned more than once.d:-)