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So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Printable Version

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So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - zx_spectrum - 03-22-2019 09:17 AM

well .. i was and still refusing to move to the prime because i heard that RPN sucks on it.
but with G2 coming out, how about that RPN mode??


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Tim Wessman - 03-22-2019 09:25 AM

No.

RPN does not suck. You just can't program in RPN/RPL.

CAS will never support RPN because it is fundamentally incompatible with it.

For number crunching and calculations in HOME, it works just fine and always has.

Seems like you want people to tell you what your opinion should be though instead of forming your own with the many free options available... so "Yes, you should." Big Grin


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - zx_spectrum - 03-22-2019 09:37 AM

besides programming;
is the stack general purpose accepting all kinds of object including functions and equations?
are there stack manipulating keys/commands : depth, roll, roll down ..?


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Komanguy - 03-22-2019 10:09 AM

(03-22-2019 09:37 AM)zx_spectrum Wrote:  besides programming;
is the stack general purpose accepting all kinds of object including functions and equations?
are there stack manipulating keys/commands : depth, roll, roll down ..?

of course, there are.


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - zx_spectrum - 03-22-2019 12:15 PM

(03-22-2019 10:09 AM)Komanguy Wrote:  
(03-22-2019 09:37 AM)zx_spectrum Wrote:  besides programming;
is the stack general purpose accepting all kinds of object including functions and equations?
are there stack manipulating keys/commands : depth, roll, roll down ..?

of course, there are.

it is good to hear that
the videos i watched on YouTube didn't illustrate such commands
and for the stack; does it accept all kinds of object including functions and equations?


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - cdmackay - 03-22-2019 07:11 PM

(03-22-2019 09:37 AM)zx_spectrum Wrote:  besides programming;
is the stack general purpose accepting all kinds of object including functions and equations?
are there stack manipulating keys/commands : depth, roll, roll down ..?

Have a look at Chapter 3 of the User Guide. However it only covers the basic stack operations, not how to use it with commands & functions, which may or may not be obvious.

Most of the stack operations are soft keys. I think the only dedicated hard key is Swap (on the key to the left of Enter).


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - cvicisso - 03-22-2019 11:02 PM

I have to say that I am very-heavily biased towards RPN. I used it extensively in college (many years ago!) and it influenced my very recent decision to get the HP Prime (G2) for my High-School son, who has ZERO experience with RPN but I wanted it to be an OPTION for him (if I could somehow convince him of its superiority!).

Now that I've actually USED the Prime, I have to say that I probably won't even try to make him try RPN (although I will remain true to RPN myself). The ability to manipulate the stack in textbook/algebraic mode mitigates many of its inherent disadvantages (IMHO). For me, although I didn't realize it until now, RPN was really mostly about the stack. Who knew? Smile With the Prime, you can simply arrow up (or TOUCH!) and grab and use anything from the stack you want. And you still have the historical stack of equations (or whatever) to reference (it's more like a copy/paste). It's wonderful!

In summary, for the RPN purists, you can still RPN your little heart out. No - not in CAS mode. Jeesh. If you are 'new' and want to give RPN a shot - that's an option too... with the ability to use textbook/algebraic when you want. Either way - you can manipulate the stack. I love it.


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Jlouis - 03-24-2019 09:35 PM

(03-22-2019 11:02 PM)cvicisso Wrote:  I have to say that I am very-heavily biased towards RPN. I used it extensively in college (many years ago!) and it influenced my very recent decision to get the HP Prime (G2) for my High-School son, who has ZERO experience with RPN but I wanted it to be an OPTION for him (if I could somehow convince him of its superiority!).

Now that I've actually USED the Prime, I have to say that I probably won't even try to make him try RPN (although I will remain true to RPN myself). The ability to manipulate the stack in textbook/algebraic mode mitigates many of its inherent disadvantages (IMHO). For me, although I didn't realize it until now, RPN was really mostly about the stack. Who knew? Smile With the Prime, you can simply arrow up (or TOUCH!) and grab and use anything from the stack you want. And you still have the historical stack of equations (or whatever) to reference (it's more like a copy/paste). It's wonderful!

In summary, for the RPN purists, you can still RPN your little heart out. No - not in CAS mode. Jeesh. If you are 'new' and want to give RPN a shot - that's an option too... with the ability to use textbook/algebraic when you want. Either way - you can manipulate the stack. I love it.

Excellent post! Agree 120%!

Cheers


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Benjer - 03-25-2019 03:00 PM

(03-22-2019 11:02 PM)cvicisso Wrote:  With the Prime, you can simply arrow up (or TOUCH!) and grab and use anything from the stack you want. And you still have the historical stack of equations (or whatever) to reference (it's more like a copy/paste). It's wonderful!

The myriad things you can do with the Prime's touchscreen, to me, demonstrate that HP made a good decision to include one on the calculator. I've become very dependent on it.

When I borrow a classmate's calculator I often have to stop myself from touching the screen in an attempt to manipulate items. Manipulating plots without a touchscreen for me is now borderline frustrating.


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Lode - 03-26-2019 09:50 PM

In Home mode (not CAS), matrix QR works in textbook mode but does not work in RPN mode (in home!).

So I think RPN can still be improved in it!


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Didier Lachieze - 03-26-2019 11:17 PM

(03-26-2019 09:50 PM)Lode Wrote:  In Home mode (not CAS), matrix QR works in textbook mode but does not work in RPN mode (in home!).

It works in RPN, for example :
[[1,2],[2,3]]
Enter
QR(1)

In RPN you have to specify the number of arguments to take from the stack (here it's one), because some functions may be called with different numbers of arguments.


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Lode - 03-26-2019 11:51 PM

(03-26-2019 11:17 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  It works in RPN, for example :
[[1,2],[2,3]]
Enter
QR(1)

In RPN you have to specify the number of arguments to take from the stack (here it's one), because some functions may be called with different numbers of arguments.

I see! Problem solved, thanks Smile


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - TravisE - 03-28-2019 01:58 AM

(03-22-2019 12:15 PM)zx_spectrum Wrote:  and for the stack; does it accept all kinds of object including functions and equations?

Unless something has changed recently, I don't believe it does. Programs, apps, and notes are handled specially on the Prime, which means one can't handle them the same way as lists, strings, real numbers, and the like. As for expressions/equations, I'm not sure.


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Lode - 03-29-2019 02:22 PM

(03-26-2019 11:51 PM)Lode Wrote:  
(03-26-2019 11:17 PM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  It works in RPN, for example :
[[1,2],[2,3]]
Enter
QR(1)

In RPN you have to specify the number of arguments to take from the stack (here it's one), because some functions may be called with different numbers of arguments.

I see! Problem solved, thanks Smile

Actually, to be honest, problem not that much solved... for unit conversions you also need to pass such extra argument to "convert", but it's for no actual reason at all (I don't see it do anything different when passing "3" instead of "2"), all it does is add extra unnecessary keypresses for unit conversions in RPN

I wish the functions would have a default amount of arguments in RPN and not require you to do this hassle.

Thanks!


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Tim Wessman - 03-30-2019 12:07 AM

They do have a default UNLESS they are functions that are actually being evaluated from the CAS (like QR). The default is the smallest number of valid arguments.

CAS cannot do that because it can work on any number of arguments in many cases.


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Lode - 03-30-2019 12:09 AM

Thanks for the reply!

Can't the firmware be programmed like:

if(in home mode and rpn mode and choose qr) then do qr on one argument Smile

Also, is CONVERT CAS? that one requires to type number 2 after choosing it in RPN in home mode


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - zx_spectrum - 04-01-2019 02:25 PM

(03-22-2019 09:25 AM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  No.

RPN does not suck. You just can't program in RPN/RPL.

CAS will never support RPN because it is fundamentally incompatible with it.

For number crunching and calculations in HOME, it works just fine and always has.

Seems like you want people to tell you what your opinion should be though instead of forming your own with the many free options available... so "Yes, you should." Big Grin

I have just tried the RPN mode on the prime app
It does suck ...... BIG TIME


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Jlouis - 04-01-2019 03:05 PM

(04-01-2019 02:25 PM)zx_spectrum Wrote:  
(03-22-2019 09:25 AM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  No.

RPN does not suck. You just can't program in RPN/RPL.

CAS will never support RPN because it is fundamentally incompatible with it.

For number crunching and calculations in HOME, it works just fine and always has.

Seems like you want people to tell you what your opinion should be though instead of forming your own with the many free options available... so "Yes, you should." Big Grin

I have just tried the RPN mode on the prime app
It does suck ...... BIG TIME

Oh, c'mon, is not that bad...


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Wes Loewer - 04-01-2019 05:59 PM

(04-01-2019 03:05 PM)Jlouis Wrote:  Oh, c'mon, is not that bad...

I agree. It's not that bad, but there are some things that I really do miss.

1) UNDO
2) The ability to interactively expand a list (like EVAL or LIST->)
3) The ability to immediately execute a user program assigned to a key without having to press Enter afterwards.
4) The ability to assign a user program to the soft menu.
5) KEEP (opposite of DROPN)
6) UNDO :-)

Or maybe I just don't know how to do some of these things. If so, please enlighten me.


RE: So.. any improvements RPN-wise ??? - Didier Lachieze - 04-01-2019 08:02 PM

1) UNDO: Shift Ans will recall to the stack the last function arguments

2) The ability to interactively expand a list (like EVAL or LIST->)
The following program assigned to a user key (here Shift 9) will do it for the list on the stack level 1. You'll need to press Enter.
Code:
KEY KS_9()
BEGIN
 IF Entry==2 THEN
  RETURN ╬úLIST(EXECON("STRING(&1)+\" \"",Ans(1)));
 ELSE
  RETURN -2;
 END;
END;
Note that the RPN stack is limited to 128 levels.