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+--- Thread: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C (/thread-14891.html)
9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Erik-M - 04-25-2020 06:38 PM
I recently got two new in plastic (no box) 9114B drives, a new in box thinkjet hpil printer and a used HP75C.
An old colleague said you like HP calculators, take this, you cannot imagine how happy I am.
Batteries are charging now, hope they hold the charge, they are new but from 1985.
Now I like to use the drive to dump the content of my HP41's to it and archive on the pc or share with others.
I understand these floppies have a non standard formatting. Is there a way to read these under linux, I have an old working USB floppy drive.
Now I don't really know what to do with the 75C, I checked the battery and battery compartment which are ok and clean so I charged it and it starts up. Is there a way to run HP41 stuff on it or is it basic only.
Sorry for this mix of questions, I am just exited.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Dave Frederickson - 04-25-2020 11:06 PM
Most likely all your batteries are no good.
The 9114 batteries can be replaced with a Powersonic PS-628
The 2225B battery pack can be rebuilt using sub-C NiCd or NiMH cells (with tabs)
Beware the ink cartridge. The ink is highly corrosive and can destroy the print head connector. New cartridges are available that work with standard paper, part number 51604A.
For the 75C I suggest using a AAA adapter like this one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rechargeable-HP-Calculator-Battery-Classic-CASE-HP-35-45-55-65-67-80/323932408596?hash=item4b6be04b14:g:3OQAAOSwVDpclCst
Charge the AAA batteries in a smart charger like a BC-700.
The 9114 uses what is known as the LIF format when used with the 41 and 75.
LIF utilities for Linux are here.
http://www.hpcc.org/datafile/hpil/lif_utils.html
However, many of the HP-IL peripherals (printer, disc drive, etc) have been replaced with virtual peripherals that connect via a PC with a USB connection and an adapter. More here.
PIL-Box: http://www.jeffcalc.hp41.eu/hpil/index.html#pilbox
Virtual Peripherals:
http://www.jeffcalc.hp41.eu/hpil/index.html#ilper
https://hp.giesselink.com/hpil.htm
https://github.com/bug400/pyilper
You can't run 41 programs on the 75 but you can run FORTH.
Dave
Edit: If you plan on using the linux utilities you will need a PC with a vintage floppy drive controller that can process low-level commands in order to read/write the discs.
Additionally, many of the pyILPER utilities are based on the LIF utilities for linux and naturally will run under Linux.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - rprosperi - 04-26-2020 01:58 AM
Just to add a tiny note of clarification to Dave's thorough reply: the USB connected floppy drive will not be capable of reading the LIF media, they can't implement the drive settings needed.
If you can, locate an older 720KB FDD, and install it in the Linux box to give it a try, it may be able to use that, depending on the age of the controller (but probably not); this is usually best with old (ISA vintage) machines as they have the legacy controller support needed to do that.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Dave Frederickson - 04-26-2020 03:04 AM
The Vintage PC
For working with LIF discs I would define a truely vintage PC as one that can run the HP utility LIFUTIL. LIFUTIL was developed in the day of 16 MHz CPU's and the code is highly hardware timing dependent making it difficult to duplicate on modern hardware. LIFUTIL is the only program I've seen that can format a LIF disc on a PC's floppy drive.
http://ftp.ftp.hpmuseum.org/lif/lifutil/
What I have is a 450 MHz PII with an Adaptec HD/FD controller and 1.44Mb and 1.2Mb FDD's. The Adaptec FD controller is one that passes the required data rates for LIF discs per Dave Dunfield's testfdc utility.
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img47321/testfdc.zip
The Registry lists the test results for a multitude of vintage controllers.
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img47321/pcfdc.txt
With this configuration I can boot the PC to DOS and disable the L2 cache with a 3rd party utility and make the thing run at a snails pace, compatible with LIFUTIL.
Or I can boot Win98SE and run some of the more modern LIF utilities like HPDir.
https://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/
The motherboard's ISA slots also allow me to plug in the 82973A HP-IL Interface Card for even more fun.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Craig Bladow - 04-26-2020 03:54 AM
I have a Dell Optiplex 755 (mini tower - not sff (small form factor)) that supports a 1.44 mb floppy drive and supports LIF formatted disks in Linux.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Erik-M - 04-26-2020 09:06 AM
Thank you for all the answers.
The printer is new so no cartridge installed, there is an original cartridge in the box but since you say its corrosive and >30 years old I just keep it this way for its collectors value and see if I can find the newer ones.
I was amazed that there are lead acid batteries in the drives, definitely dead so I ordered two new PS-628 batteries.
Yesterday late I found already some LIF software but it doesn't work from a dos VM. Since you confirm it doesn't work from USB I don't have to try more.
I have an old 1200 MHz pentium somewhere, don't know if there is a keyboard but I will have a look later. I looked at the pil box but this is more fun.
Do I understand well that the newer linux LIF utils run on faster hardware but still need the old fashioned floppy drive
Forth on the 75C could be really interesting but I guess its better to trade this thing for some HP41 stuff later.
Erik
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - rprosperi - 04-26-2020 01:45 PM
(04-26-2020 03:54 AM)Craig Bladow Wrote: I have a Dell Optiplex 755 (mini tower - not sff (small form factor)) that supports a 1.44 mb floppy drive and supports LIF formatted disks in Linux.
Will that same machine support LIF media under DOS Craig? I suspect so, but not sure if DOS and Linux use the BIOS the same way. The 755's are cheap and readily available but still modern enough to make a good vintage play machine if they do.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Dave Frederickson - 04-26-2020 01:47 PM
(04-26-2020 09:06 AM)Erik-M Wrote: Do I understand well that the newer linux LIF utils run on faster hardware but still need the old fashioned floppy drive
I've used the Python version of the LIF utilities on newer hardware without issue. https://github.com/bug400/lifutils
In order to work with LIF discs on a PC you need an old floppy disc controller and to test that you need to run TESTFDC, above.
Of course you don't need to use a PC at all. What you do need are some DS/DD floppy discs. Don't use HD discs, find some double-density discs on eBay.
Regarding the 9114's, the lubrication in drive mechanisms has a tendency to get gummy over time . You need to remove the top covers and carefully insert a disc into the drive. In a gummed up mechanism the disc will have a tendency to catch on the drive head and severely damage it.
If the mechanism does not operate smoothly when inserting and ejecting a disc then it needs to be cleaned with isopropyl alcohol.
Once the drive is all together you can run a self-test by inserting a disc and turning on the power.
Quote:Yesterday late I found already some LIF software but it doesn't work from a dos VM.
Yeah, that won't work. You need something that can understand LIF. Here's the definitive LIF article.
https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=24
Dave
Edit: Try running HPDir from the DOS VM. I think you should be able to read the discs with standard hardware.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Erik-M - 04-26-2020 03:38 PM
Thanks again , good info.
The drives have their original new 720k floppies so I will use one for testing.
If I put it in the drive it goes in with a nice click and it ejects fine so I don't think anything is gummed up there. It doesn't seem to work without the battery so I will wait till they arrive.
I located the old computer, its in my sisters house and fortunately she didn't throw it away.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Dave Frederickson - 04-26-2020 05:10 PM
(04-25-2020 06:38 PM)Erik-M Wrote: Now I like to use the drive to dump the content of my HP41's to it and archive on the pc or share with others.
What you'll need is an 82160A HP-IL interface for the 41's. These can be found on eBay.
Once the 9114's are working you can copy the contents of the 41's to floppy disc. Then a LIF disc image can be created using HPDir.
Another option is to use a PIL-Box and ILvlif to create the image. This method is different in that the PC is used as the HP-IL controller and the 41 isn't used.
Dave
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Erik-M - 04-26-2020 06:16 PM
Dave I bought already the HPIL interface with the idea to build a pil box but then this came on my path.
See picture, now I have these wonderful toys I want to use them :-)
I also found the right printer cartridge, its just 15 euro, cheaper than the modern ones.
The battery is Nicad and seems to hold a charge, lets see after some hours of charging.
What about that ext io module to access the whole 720 k of the floppy, is this thing obtainable or should I forget.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Dave Frederickson - 04-26-2020 07:04 PM
(04-26-2020 06:16 PM)Erik-M Wrote: I also found the right printer cartridge, its just 15 euro, cheaper than the modern ones.
The battery is Nicad and seems to hold a charge, lets see after some hours of charging.
What about that ext io module to access the whole 720 k of the floppy, is this thing obtainable or should I forget.
Hi Erik,
What do you mean by "the right printer cartridge"? From the HP Computer Museum:
Quote:The original ink cartridge for the ThinkJet printer was the 92261A. This cartridge had to be used with HP's special JetPaper to achieve an acceptable result. In the following years, additional ink cartridges were introduced to work with the ThinkJet and QuietJet printers. The plain paper cartridge was the 51604A. Single color cartridges were also introduced and required HP's JetPaper to achieve an acceptable result: 51605R (red), 51605B (blue) and 51605G (green).
The ink cartridge in the pic looks like the 51604A which is the modern one. Note, the paper included with the printer is the now hard-to-find inkjet paper and standard pinfeed paper, for use with the 51605A cartridge, in boxes smaller than 2500 sheets is also hard to find.
The printer does use a battery pack comprised of six sub-C NiCd cells. If you need to refurb the pack you can use either NiCd or NiMH cells with tabs.
Regarding the XIO module, I'm a 71 guy so I'll pass on that one, but XIO modules have sold recently on eBay. One included a 41CX.
Dave
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Erik-M - 04-26-2020 08:11 PM
The cartridge is the 92261A, its the original that came with the printer it must be from 1985 or older.
I don't want to use it because:
- age
- I understand these old ones are corrosive.
- if I ever want to sell the printer (unlikely) it is more interesting with all the original accessories.
See pics, the sticker advertises the plain paper cartridge, the box contains the 92261A.
With modern I mean the non corrosive plain paper ones.
I can buy tractorfeed paper in a 2000 sheets box for 32 euro in at least 3 webstores here.
Inktjet paper is also there for 33 euro a box of 2000 http://www.mercateo.nl/p/CINL8-26581401/Sigel_12249_papier_voor_inkjetprinter_Wit.html
Unfortunately only for commercial buyers but for my playing around the normal paper will do fine.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Craig Bladow - 04-27-2020 03:27 AM
(04-26-2020 01:45 PM)rprosperi Wrote:(04-26-2020 03:54 AM)Craig Bladow Wrote: I have a Dell Optiplex 755 (mini tower - not sff (small form factor)) that supports a 1.44 mb floppy drive and supports LIF formatted disks in Linux.
Will that same machine support LIF media under DOS Craig? I suspect so, but not sure if DOS and Linux use the BIOS the same way. The 755's are cheap and readily available but still modern enough to make a good vintage play machine if they do.
Bob, I see no reason why it wouldn't work under DOS. The Optiplex 755 was purchased a few years ago as the intel chipset was one of the last to support a floppy drive and works with LIF disks.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Erik-M - 04-29-2020 05:42 PM
Received the batteries today and have the drives working.
One battery didn't charge so I have to return it but at least I could test both.
Put the content of my 41's on a disk and a bunch of programs.
Found some 1,44MB disks and taped the hole so the drive thinks they are 720k, works fine.
But it looks like I need only one disk, don't know how to fill this :-)
No need for x-mem and cards anymore.
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Dave Frederickson - 04-29-2020 06:50 PM
(04-29-2020 05:42 PM)Erik-M Wrote: Received the batteries today and have the drives working.
Good news!
Quote:One battery didn't charge so I have to return it but at least I could test both.
There's a 5A pico fuse on the PCB inside the battery pack that sometimes blows. It can look like a dead battery.
Quote:Put the content of my 41's on a disk and a bunch of programs.
Found some 1,44MB disks and taped the hole so the drive thinks they are 720k, works fine.
While doing this is fine for a quick check of the drive, be aware that 1.44Mb HD media has different magnetic properties compared to 720k media and it's use is not recommended. It is highly advisable to NOT backup critical data to HD media and find some 720k discs instead.
Dave
RE: 9114B and HP-41 HP75C - Erik-M - 04-30-2020 11:47 AM
Dave, you are right about the disks, there are some that really dont work this way but I found the 3M disks to work fine. I have some experience from 30 years ago :-)
My wife found some 720 k disks in her collection, she was laughing after I said I needed them.
her computer experience goes back to the 70's haha.
The battery is really damaged, I tried to charge it with an external charger but the Ri seems to be very high, I expect it to be one that has been on the shelf too long.