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I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Printable Version

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I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - bxparks - 04-08-2024 08:34 PM

Hello,
One of my goals for 2024 was to learn RPL. I had never used a 28 series or a 48/49/50 series calculator before. I am familiar with RPN calculators only, having used or owned the 12C, 15C, 42S, and the 30b, and being somewhat familiar with other HP RPN calculators. I had read numerous people on this forum (and elsewhere) proclaim how they much love the HP-50g. So I bought myself a 50g as a Christmas present, and started reading the 887-page "User's Guide" PDF file.

It was rough. I kept pushing myself for about 250-300 pages, then gave up. I am convinced that I am missing some fundamental concepts about the 50g. I hope this forum can shed some light on some basic questions. I don't know anyone in person that I can ask.

1) What Do the Arrow Keys Actually Do?

The arrow keys on the 50g seem to perform secondary actions, but there are no labels next to those keys. I have looked all over the User's Guide (e.g. p 1-11 "Introducing the Calculator Keyboard"; Appendix B "The Calculator's Keyboard", etc) but I cannot find this information.

The LeftArrow sends me into some graphical "paint" mode with a + sign as the cursor. I don't know what this mode is.

The RightArrow is X<>Y, I discovered that by accident.

The UpArrow and DownArrow move the cursor up and down the RPL stack. But what can I do there in the stack? I can delete an entry with the <- button. I expected ENTER to copy and paste the entry at the cursor to the bottom of the stack, but ENTER does nothing. I tried 'RightShift COPY' and 'RightShift Paste', but that does nothing.

The LeftShift+UP and RightShift+UP *seem* to be PageUp. The LeftShift+DOWN and RightShift+DOWN *seem* to be PageDown, but not always. For example, RightShift+DOWN in a certain mode shows a list of words: EDIT, VIEW, STACK, RCL, PURGE, CLEAR. But I don't understand the purpose of this list. I cannot scroll those words with the arrow keys. As soon as I hit an arrow key, that list clears and I exit out of that mode.

RightShift+RIGHT goes into "Xmodem Server Waiting for command". Which seems like an odd mode to attach to a RightShift+RIGHT. Is the Xmodem Server used so often that it deserves this shortcut?

Is there a reference in the User's Guide that explains what the arrow keys do in all contexts?

2) Soft Menu Does Not Always Work

I have MODE > FLAGS > Flag 117 set to "Soft MENU", because I am familiar with the HP-42S user interface. But it seems like there are numerous bugs where a menu mode is rendered in "CHOOSE boxes", instead of "Soft MENU", for example:
  • RightShift+STAT
  • RightShift+TIME
  • RightShift+NUM.SLV
  • LeftShift+FINANCE

Is there a way to force these to be "Soft MENU"?

3) How to Exit to Parent Folder from Child Folder When Using Soft Menu

After clicking on a soft menu folder, is there a way to quickly go back up to the parent folder, like the ON/EXIT button on the HP-42S? On the 50g, the ON/CANCEL button will exit out of a 'CHOOSE box' menu. But when using Soft Menu, I have to press the NXT button (I had to Google that one) multiple times to get the last row, and usually there's a soft menu button back to the parent folder. But I have at least 3 problems with this:
  • It's slow and error-prone, because I don't know how many times I have to hit NXT to get to the last row.
  • I sometimes forget what my parent menu folder was called, because I'm not familiar with the 50g menu system, and I'm doing a lot of exploration.
  • The soft menu going back to the parent folder goes to the wrong row in the parent sometimes. For example, the 'MTH > PROB' folder is in Row 2 of 'MTH'. When I click on the 'MTH > PROB > MTH' backlink inside the 'PROB' subfolder, it takes me back to 'MTH > Row 1'. Then I have to hit 'NXT' to get to Row 2 where the 'PROB' soft menu was.

Maybe it's because I'm not used to it, but I find the 50g menu system to be slow and frustrating compared to the 42S.

4) Where is the SHOW function?

There are times when a number on the stack is too long, so the 50g displays the first part of the number and ends with an ellipsis "...". How do I view the entire number? Where is the equivalent of the SHOW function that other HP calculators have?

The obvious key binding for SHOW to me is the RightArrow key, because of the ellipsis character. But the 50g doesn't do that. Which is how I discovered that RightArrow is actually X<>Y.

5) How do I Invoke the Equation Writer on a Previously Entered Equation?

One of the first examples of using the Equation Writer (RightShift+EQW) is on page 1-13, which has the following example, sqrt(3 * (5-1/(3*3))/(23^3) + e^2.5), which looks like this in MathJax/Latex mode:

\[
\sqrt{\frac{3\cdot(5 - \frac{1}{3 \cdot 3})}{23^3}+e^{2.5}}
\]

I have tried to enter this equation into EQW about 4-5 times over 3 months, and I have never been able to enter it correctly. I cannot seem to be able figure out how to use the arrow keys to get to the correct location to remove or add the correct parenthesis or term. (Amusingly, I was able to enter this expression correctly in RPN mode on the first try.)

So I enter the incorrect equation, and it shows up on the RPL stack, and I can see that it is wrong. How do I edit that equation?? I have tried everything:
  • I scroll up to that term with the arrow keys, hit RightShift+EQW, and my expectation is that it should copy that back into the EquationWriter. Nope.
  • I scroll up, hit RightShift+COPY, then go into RightShift+EQW, then hit RightShift+PASTE. Nothing

I have searched the User's Guide for information on how to edit a previously entered equation. It must be in there somewhere in the 887 pages, but I cannot find it.

6) Where is the MENU button??

Several places in the User's Guide refer to a MENU button:
  • Page 3-21, "117.02 ENTER MENU" (something about UNITS)
  • Page 6-26, "74 MENU" (the SOLVE menu)
  • Page 18-15, "96 MENU" (the STAT menu)
  • Page G-3, there are apparently a bunch of menus which are only accessible through cryptic numerical codes: "96 MENU", "81 MENU", "74 MENU".

I have examined every key on the 50g keyboard, with a magnifying glass. I cannot find a MENU button. Where is this thing??

Secondly, why are certain menus exposed only through numerical codes? There are maybe hundreds of menu rows on the 50g. How is it possible that these hidden menus could not be exposed through one of those existing menus? There is almost zero chance that I will be able to remember the numerical codes for these hidden menus, which means that they might as well not exist.

7) Two Slightly Different CMPLX Menus, Why?

Complex numbers are entered and displayed as a 2-element list. That's a bit weird, since the HP-42S and the 35s have already demonstrated more ergonomic ways of displaying them. But I think I can get used to that.

But I don't understand why there are 2 slightly different CMPLX menus: one accessed through 'LeftShift+MTH NXT CMPLX', and the second one through 'RightShift+CMPLX'. They are almost, but not quite, identical. Which seems almost insulting, because I am never going to remember the difference between the two.

8) Additional Thoughts

I have more questions, but I think I will stop here for now. As you can see, I have not made it to the RPL programming part.

When I took the 50g out of the box, it was in ALGebraic mode. So I wanted to put this into RPN mode. Easy enough, hit the MODE key, I see "Operating Mode..Algebraic", so I need to change this to "RPN". Then I hit a brick wall. The RightArrow is what I expected to pop up a dialog box, nope. ENTER was the other possibility, nope. Tried whole bunch of other buttons, nope. I had to use Google to learn that I have to press the 'CHOOS' soft menu button, the 2nd one from the left, buried along a bunch of other soft menu button. Not obvious to me.

Very few things about this calculator are intuitive. But I still want to learn RPL, so I hope to soldier on. My goal has been updated: Instead of 2024, I hope to learn RPL in 3-4 years.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Jim Horn - 04-08-2024 08:55 PM

While I'm not a '50g expert, I can assure you that you've come to the right place. The number of folks here who can and will be glad to help is amazing. Do rest assured that once you get past the initial stages with their help, you'll be doing great!

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Steve Simpkin - 04-08-2024 10:23 PM

Since you are familiar with the HP-42S, I would recommend looking at the book, "HP 41/HP 48 Transitions" by William C. Wickes. William C. Wickes was the project manager for the HP-28 and HP-48 calculator projects and is very good at explaining how RPL works and the reasoning behind the evolution of RPN to RPL. While it doesn't cover the HP 50g, I hope it may make transitioning from RPN to RPL a bit easier.

A PDF of this book is available here:
https://literature.hpcalc.org/community/hp41-hp48-transitions.pdf

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Gil - 04-08-2024 10:31 PM

4, 5
Down Arrow

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - bxparks - 04-08-2024 10:32 PM

(04-08-2024 10:23 PM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  Since you are familiar with the HP-42S, I would recommend looking at the book, "HP 41/HP 48 Transitions" by William C. Wickes.
[...]
https://literature.hpcalc.org/community/hp41-hp48-transitions.pdf

I have actually skimmed most of that book, and I thought I understood the motivations and the object model of RPL: basically a combination of FORTH and Lisp merged into a calculator form. That part seemed pretty clear.

The problem is that I can't even get to the RPL part. I'm hitting inconsistencies in the 50g UI which don't make sense to me. But I will try to read that book again.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Gil - 04-08-2024 10:39 PM

6 two ways a or b
a) PRG
NXT
MODE
MENU
MENU

or b)
CAT
Alpha
LetterM
Down Arrow 12 times

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Gil - 04-08-2024 10:46 PM

7 to enter 5+6i
Left Shift
Minus Sign
5
SPC
6
ENTER

I only use the following path:
MATH
NXT
CMPLX

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - carey - 04-08-2024 10:57 PM

(04-08-2024 08:34 PM)bxparks Wrote:  …started reading the 887-page "User's Guide" PDF file. It was rough. I kept pushing myself for about 250-300 pages, then gave up.
1) What Do the Arrow Keys Actually Do?
The arrow keys on the 50g seem to perform secondary actions, but there are no labels next to those keys. I have looked all over the User's Guide (e.g. p 1-11 "Introducing the Calculator Keyboard"; Appendix B "The Calculator's Keyboard", etc) but I cannot find this information.

First, bless you for your entire clearly written post that describes also my experience of trying to make friends with the HP50g. As you mentioned in your reply to a post, RPL is not the issue (RPL is a beautifully designed programming language) but the issue is the HP50g UI, especially keyboard overloading of commands that often seems (is?) arbitrary. This is one reason some prefer HP48 series calculators for RPL despite their hardware shortcomings but at least more commands can be found more easily and logically.

The Appendix with the HP50g keyboard shortcuts is Appendix G (page 633) of the Advanced User Reference (AUR). So after plowing (U.S.) (or ploughing, U.K.) through the 887 page User’s Guide, the 693 page AUR awaits! :)

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Steve Simpkin - 04-08-2024 11:03 PM

(04-08-2024 10:32 PM)bxparks Wrote:  
(04-08-2024 10:23 PM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  Since you are familiar with the HP-42S, I would recommend looking at the book, "HP 41/HP 48 Transitions" by William C. Wickes.
[...]
https://literature.hpcalc.org/community/hp41-hp48-transitions.pdf

I have actually skimmed most of that book, and I thought I understood the motivations and the object model of RPL: basically a combination of FORTH and Lisp merged into a calculator form. That part seemed pretty clear.

The problem is that I can't even get to the RPL part. I'm hitting inconsistencies in the 50g UI which don't make sense to me. But I will try to read that book again.

You are not alone. I used HP RPN models for 11 years and then transitioned to the HP-28/HP-48 models and used them for the past 36 years. I fully embraced RPL and really enjoy the features of an unlimited stack and the RPL programming language but I still struggle when it comes to using the HP 49/50g series. I understand that HP did what it had to do when the engineering/scientific/technical marketplace for calculators went away and they were left with only the educational sector. This was already dominated by TI and Casio so HP made their graphing models look and act more like the calculators from those vendors. I suspect the key is just keep asking questions here and keep practicing with the HP 50g.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - ttw - 04-09-2024 01:03 AM

The "User's Guide" and something like a "Get Started" booklet are online and quite helpful. It's a complicated calculator but rather powerful. I use it a lot (mostly the Emu48 version on a cell phone, I can't get Emu48 working on a PC running Windows 11). I usually sketch out large-scale programs on the 50g before committing to the PC. I did write some number theory stuff; probably not as fast or sophisticated as Pari, but I find Pari rather complicated to interface with programming languages.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - John Keith - 04-09-2024 12:19 PM

(04-08-2024 10:57 PM)carey Wrote:  So after plowing (U.S.) (or ploughing, U.K.) through the 887 page User’s Guide, the 693 page AUR awaits! Smile

I personally find the user's guide to be of little use, and very annoying due to separate examples for algebraic and RPN mode in every subject. The AUR on the other hand is very good. Importantly, every entry has a heading called Access which lists the keystrokes used to access the command. The menu system is indeed complex and often un-intuitive but you will get used to it.

Another major difference between the 48 series and the 50g is Exact mode. You can toggle between Approximate mode and Exact mode by holding down right-shift and pressing Enter. When in exact mode, all numbers entered are exact integers unless they have a decimal point. Exact integers can be converted to floating-point numbers using ->NUM (right-shift Enter). Quotients that are not integers are returned as fractions, e.g. '3/8' rather than .375. Integers can be any size that will fit in memory, so you can type 999! and all 2565 digits will be exact.

This brings up another issue with complex numbers: Complex numbers entered with parentheses, e.g (3, 4) are always floating-point numbers. To get exact complex numbers you must enter them as an expression: '3+4*i'.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Eric Rechlin - 04-09-2024 03:44 PM

I think a big problem here is that the 50g really expects you to know the 48 series first, and there are a lot of assumptions that were made on it that are totally obvious to 48 users but completely perplexing to everyone else.

I'll quickly address each one of your questions:

Quote:1) What Do the Arrow Keys Actually Do?

This were labeled on the 48 so they made sense there, and their functions were retained on the 49/50 while the key labels were left entirely off the keyboard for space reasons. You just have to memorize them, unfortunately. It's kind of silly:

[Up Arrow]: Lets you interact with upper levels of the stack, labeled [STACK] on the 48 (honestly unnecessary because the [HIST] key does almost exactly the same thing)
[Left Arrow]: Goes to the graphing output (picture) display, labeled [PICTURE] on the 48
[Down Arrow]: Lets you view/edit level 1 of the stack in the best editor appropriate for it, labeled [VIEW] on the 48
[Right Arrow]: Does X exchange Y, or swap, labeled [SWAP] on the 48

Quote:2) Soft Menu Does Not Always Work

The 49/50 flag -117 tells the system whether to use the 48-style softkey menus, or automatically replace them with the 49/50 style choose-like boxes. Most of us prefer the former, but the latter were made default to help new users. However, back in the 48GX days, as an attempt to make that calculator easier to use, some of the softkey menus from the 48SX were replaced with new CHOOSE boxes for the 48GX. But at the time of the 48GX there was no option to go back (although in many cases the softkey menu was still available by hidden manual MENU calls). So this inconsistency was (IMHO) stupidly retained on the 49/50. I really think it should stick with softkey menus everywhere when flag -117 is changed, but the developers decided to retain the inconsistent 48GX functionality here.

Quote:3) How to Exit to Parent Folder from Child Folder When Using Soft Menu

This is another hidden feature on the 50. On the 48GX, you did this by pressing [MENU], which was the opposite shift of the [PREV] command, which then brought you to the PREVious MENU rather than the PREVious page. Note this was not the same as the MENU command on the 48. This was actually just an evolution of the more consistent 48SX, which has [PREV] in the same location as on the 48GX, but [MENU] was actually shown in the [LAST] grouping on a different key, meaning it was "Last Menu", which made a lot more sense. Again, an example of where the 48SX was a more coherent/consistent design than the 48GX, which in turn was a more coherent/consistent design than the 49/50 -- which gets even more obscure here. On the 49/50, you get to the previous menu by holding [Left Shift] and pressing [PREV], whereas you get to the previous page by pressing and releasing [Left Shift] and then pressing [PREV]. Yes, on a bunch of keys, holding the shift key when pressing the next key causes a different operation than pressing and releasing the shift key first. Yes, this is very very confusing for new users, but it allows a lot of extra useful shortcuts for users who know the "hidden" functionality.

Quote:4) Where is the SHOW function?

To view and edit, press [Down Arrow]. To just view (in tiny text that you can scroll around), press [TOOL] and then the |VIEW| softkey.

Quote:5) How do I Invoke the Equation Writer on a Previously Entered Equation?

As above, press [Down Arrow] when it's on level 1 of the stack. When you are in the [HIST]/[Up Arrow] stack view mode, however, I can't remember how to invoke EQW on the selected item. There must be a way to do it but all the obvious (and slightly less obvious) ideas I have do not work. Maybe a deficiency there? Or maybe even I am baffled by the 50 and it's something obscure? Basically I'm looking for a way to invoke the EDITB command on it in the stack history view.

Quote:6) Where is the MENU button??

It doesn't exist. Amusingly, as said above the 48 does have a [MENU] button, but it doesn't actually invoke the MENU command, it just goes to the previous menu. But the MENU command is separate and must be typed in. It's not normally expected to be used, because it's really only for programmatically bringing up a menu that can be reached by other keys, or for bringing up hidden menus in the system that may have been on the 48SX or 48GX but are not normally used on the 49/50 (but remain accessible for backwards compatibility and power users).

Quote:7) Two Slightly Different CMPLX Menus, Why?

One is just the original 48 series CMPLX menu, for numeric values (reals). The other is the new 49 series CMPLX menu, for symbolic values (algebraics), using the CAS commands. This actually came from the Erable third-party program. When the 49 was made, lots of the CAS functionality was kind of just dropped in there from Erable rather than being done in a consistent manner. They attempted to fix that with the Prime by having entirely separate numeric and CAS modes, but I'm not convinced this was the right answer either. Basically you just have to remember different things are needed for numeric or CAS operations and have to keep in mind what is what -- and there is overlap between them too. With more time I think this could have been done better, but the 49 was rushed out in like a year of development, and once all that was set in stone it was never fixed even in the 7 years before the 50g came out. I think it's because it was very hard to decide the best way to do it, whether to have one set of menus for numeric and one set of menus for CAS, or tried to blend them together, or what. But what we ended up with was a [MTH] key that had all the historic 48 numeric commands under it, and then a bunch of other keys each with subsets of the 49's CAS-based symbolic commands. Not ideal but it's what we have. Really what it is is the 50 doesn't know whether it's trying to be a CAS engine, a graphing calculator, or a powerful programmable handheld, and we have a weird mix of everything with different prioritization in different places. Somehow it all just works -- but it's extremely unfriendly to beginners.

Quote:8) Additional Thoughts

That INFORM display behavior was inherited from the 48GX, and is possibly one reason why some users prefer the cryptic but consistent behavior of the 48SX instead. Another way to change the value is to press [+/-] to cycle though the choices -- again not obvious. The 50g really requires you to spend a long time studying and understanding its manuals (and really, the 48GX manual too, since the 50g User's Guide is not very good). The 50g was really designed to make sense for someone who used a 48GX before but as I said before, it can be totally baffling to just about anyone else.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Voldemar - 04-09-2024 07:18 PM

(04-08-2024 10:39 PM)Gil Wrote:  CAT
Alpha
LetterM
Down Arrow 12 times
ALPHA lock can be used. (System flag 60 is not checked)
ALPHA
ALPHA
M
E
N
(letter keys must be pressed quickly one after the other)
ALPHA (to exit ALPHA lock)

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Mr_F - 04-10-2024 02:34 PM

(04-09-2024 07:18 PM)Voldemar Wrote:  (letter keys must be pressed quickly one after the other)

Thank you very much for posting this. I'd tried rapid pressing within CAT early in my 50g experience and somehow concluded that the functionality was not there. I try again today and it works!

Entering commands on the 50g is a question of knowing the desired command then finding the minimal number of keystrokes to enter it. Both parts come with experience and I have found within my first two years if serious usage that there is always more to unpack.

This whole thread, like so many in this forum, is a gift! Thanks all.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - bxparks - 04-10-2024 06:46 PM

Thank you to everyone for the responses, particularly Eric Rechlin's lengthy post. They really helped put the 50g UI into perspective. For readability, I'll respond to some of the points in this single post, instead of replying multiple times separately to various posts.

A) On the question of:
"1) What Do the Arrow Keys Actually Do?",
thank you @carey for pointing to "the HP50g keyboard shortcuts is Appendix G (page 633) of the Advanced User Reference (AUR)". That seems to be the comprehensive list of all the various shortcuts.

B) On the questions of:
"4) Where is the SHOW function?
5) How do I Invoke the Equation Writer on a Previously Entered Equation?",
several people (@Gil, @Eric, others?) answered "DOWN". @Eric wrote: "press [Down Arrow] when it's on level 1 of the stack." I tried that multiple times. Nothing.

Eventually I realized that the 50g has at least 3 different modes, which affect the behavior of the DOWN button:
a) a command line mode outside the RPL stack which waits for input,
b) an Input/Edit mode after a digit entry, which shows an edit cursor on the bottom line, and
c) the HIST/UP mode where the cursor is inside the RPL stack.
I was hitting UP to get to Level 1 of the RPL stack, then hitting DOWN, which does nothing. I can't be in Input/Edit mode either. I actually have to hit ON/CANCEL to get to the command line mode, then hit DOWN.

C) On the question of:
"3) How to Exit to Parent Folder from Child Folder When Using Soft Menu",
@Eric answered LeftShift&PREV, i.e. pressing LeftShift and PREV at the same time. This does not seem to do what I want. The LeftShift&PREV seems to perform a "Flip Back to Previous Menu", instead of "Go Up to Parent Menu Folder" (which is bound to ON/EXIT on the 42S).

For example, if I click LeftShift+MTH, I get 2 menu rows (pages), which I can navigate with NXT:

Code:

VECTR MATRX LIST HYP REAL BASE
PROB FFT CMPLX CONST SPECI

I can press PROB to get 2 menu rows in the PROB folder:

Code:

COMB PERM ! RAND RDZ
UTPC UTPF UTPN UTPT NDIST MTH

To go back up to the parent MTH folder, the 50g wants me to press NXT, to get to Row 2 of STAT, and press MTH. I just want to hit ON/CANCEL.

If I press LeftShift&PREV (at the same time), it takes me to a menu that was there before I pressed LeftShift+MTH. If I press LeftShift&PREV again, it flips me back to the MTH menu.

The menu navigation of the 50g is so inconsistent, it drives me batty. Here's another example. I press TOOL and get:

Code:

EDIT VIEW STACK RCL PURGE CLEAR
CASCH HELP

I press STACK to get:

Code:

DUP SWAP DROP OVER ROT UNROT
ROLL ROLLD PICK UNPICK PICK3 DEPTH
DUP2 DUPN DROP2 DROPN DUPDU NIP
NDUPN                      PRG

That last soft menu button on Row 4 should go back up to the parent. That should be TOOL, not PRG.

D) On the topic of the Advanced User Reference (693 pages), I scanned through it, and it actually seems far better organized than the User's Guide (887 pages). Of course, the AUR is a reference guide, not a tutorial, so it assumes a basic knowledge of the calculator which a new user cannot have.

E) On the question of:
"7) Two Slightly Different CMPLX Menus, Why?",
it was interesting to read about the history of these 2 menu folders, one being numerical, the other being symbolic. But in terms of actual use, there should be no difference in the functionality of these menu items, right? I mean, 'RightShift+CMPLX CONJ' seems to do exactly the same thing as 'LeftShift+MTH NXT CMPLX NXT CONJ'.

F) Overall thoughts on the 50g.

The amount of engineering that went into the 50g is truly impressive. The Advanced User Guide is proof of that. But I am beginning to think that the 50g must have the worst UI in the history of calculators. The only people who can make sense of this calculator are previous users of the 48 or 49 series calculators. Which seems like a strange product decision, because that automatically limits the market for the 50g to a tiny, rarefied group of people.

I'm going to peck at this calculator a bit more. But I'm not sure that I want to spend too much time learning something that has such user-hostile UI design. There will never be new firmware upgrades, there will never be any fixes. There are too many things that I want to do, besides spending the next 10-20 years learning the idiosyncrasies of this calculator.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Eric Rechlin - 04-10-2024 07:53 PM

(04-10-2024 06:46 PM)bxparks Wrote:  If I press LeftShift&PREV (at the same time), it takes me to a menu that was there before I pressed LeftShift+MTH. If I press LeftShift&PREV again, it flips me back to the MTH menu.

The menu navigation of the 50g is so inconsistent, it drives me batty. Here's another example. I press TOOL and get:

Code:

EDIT VIEW STACK RCL PURGE CLEAR
CASCH HELP

I press STACK to get:

Code:

DUP SWAP DROP OVER ROT UNROT
ROLL ROLLD PICK UNPICK PICK3 DEPTH
DUP2 DUPN DROP2 DROPN DUPDU NIP
NDUPN                      PRG

That last soft menu button on Row 4 should go back up to the parent. That should be TOOL, not PRG.

You're right, I was wrong here because it goes back to the previous totally different menu, not the previous menu that happened to be the parent. I no longer remember why that is.

I think you are seeing the inconsistent behavior with TOOL-STACK vs PRG-STACK because |STACK| on the 48 was originally only in the PRG menu, so its parent was always PRG, but then the 49 added the [TOOL] menu, where the |STACK| option was added, displaying the PRG-STACK menu. The menu items themselves aren't context-sensitive, so it doesn't know where it came from, and just shows the hard-coded link back to [PRG]. In this case it doesn't really matter, though, since you can get back to the TOOL menu by pressing [TOOL] or back to the PRG menu by pressing [PRG].

I'm not excusing how it works here -- I agree, it's not great -- just trying to explain it.

Quote:"7) Two Slightly Different CMPLX Menus, Why?",
But in terms of actual use, there should be no difference in the functionality of these menu items, right? I mean, 'RightShift+CMPLX CONJ' seems to do exactly the same thing as 'LeftShift+MTH NXT CMPLX NXT CONJ'.

Yes, sometimes the same command is shown in multiple menus, and there would be no behavioral difference regardless of where you run it from. I agree that the two very similar (but distinctly different) CMPLX menus was not a good implementation.

Quote:But I am beginning to think that the 50g must have the worst UI in the history of calculators. The only people who can make sense of this calculator are previous users of the 48 or 49 series calculators.

I can see that perspective. However, I think you are making it sound a bit worse than it is. A lot of the inconsistencies are in optional features that you can ignore for simplicity and only learn if you are looking for extra efficiency as a power user. Once you get over a few hurdles, things will make sense and you'll be able to just treat it as a super-48. And I think the 48SX is an example of a calculator with a very good user interface, just a bit of a learning curve (albeit with an abysmally slow processor). Easy-to-use (in contrast to easy-to-learn).

To me the ideal calculator would be something based on the 48SX, but with the speed and added commands and bigger screen of the 50, and with a keyboard layout somewhat of a hybrid between the two. However, I think the 50 can get pretty close to that as it is. I don't even use most of the shifted number keys with their inelegant menus because they aren't things I care about (on the shifted numbers, I only use [BASE], [#], [UNITS], [CONVERT], and hold-shift-[TIME]).

What is being developed with the DB48X program (firmware replacement for the DM42) might get closer to my ideal calculator, and even if it doesn't, since it's open-source maybe someone can take it in a new direction. Basically it's an RPL calculator in the form of the 42, but with (eventually) the functionality of at least the 48, and maybe beyond.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Voldemar - 04-10-2024 08:28 PM

(04-10-2024 06:46 PM)bxparks Wrote:  That last soft menu button on Row 4 should go back up to the parent. That should be TOOL, not PRG.
There is no soft menu «button» TOOL, there is a physical button TOOL.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - Voldemar - 04-10-2024 08:47 PM

(04-10-2024 06:46 PM)bxparks Wrote:  I'm going to peck at this calculator a bit more. But I'm not sure that I want to spend too much time learning something that has such user-hostile UI design. There will never be new firmware upgrades, there will never be any fixes. There are too many things that I want to do, besides spending the next 10-20 years learning the idiosyncrasies of this calculator.
When I bought the 50g I had no previous experience with the 48 series, Prime came out soon, I was learning both calculators at the same time, the Prime RPN mode has similarities to the 50g, except programming. I will say, Prime made it easier for me to understand 50g.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - nickapos - 04-11-2024 03:45 AM

What a beautiful discussion. To the OP thank you for your questions, I got some unasked answers as well.
I am not an experienced HP user and did not have them during my school years.
I discovered them a few years ago and after some research I reached to the conclusion that I would like to have prime hp 50g and plus42 in physical form if I could.
I can’t so I only have 50g and prime. I do write small RPN programs and even the occasional HPPL program but I have never written an RPL program.

Despite that 50g is one of my favourite calculators. TBH most of the time I prefer it from prime. All three of these calculators suffer from the same issue, they have too much functionality and that makes it difficult to design in a way that all of this functionality will be available to the user.
The reason for this is that the audience is too wide. People have different needs so eventually that function you actually need may be hidden down in a menu. So you need to discover the shortcuts and use custom/user menus extensively.

The best of the three from this perspective is plus42. it’s clean, and Thomas is actively trying to improve it all the time. Both prime and 50g are functionally behemoths and you need to know your way around them.
Often I have to relearn how to do things efficiently. I have also realised that these tools need a lot of time in order to learn them fully but that has not stopped me from using them.
I just learn new things every day.

RE: I don't understand the HP-50g, what am I missing? - David Hayden - 04-11-2024 11:56 AM

I feel your pain. I too moved directly from an RPN calculator (41CV) to the 50g and found the manual and user guide impenetrable. If I weren't an HP fan, I would have thrown the whole thing away, or against a brick wall in frustration. "Horrible" doesn't even begin to describe it. Eventually I realized that the 184 page "manual" is really a Quick Reference Guide, designed for people who already know how to use it.

To comment on some of your specific questions (which were wonderfully well asked, but the way).

Menus are not hierarchical. There is no "parent menu," only the previous menu that you were using. Unfortunately, I don't think the 50g remembers more than one previous menu.

You've mentioned parent and child "folders" a few times. In RPL, there are directories and there are menus. A directory stores a bunch of variables and can contain subdirectories. A menu is a reassignment of the top row of keys. That can be confusing because when you enter a directory, the menu changes to a list of the variables within that menu.

I mention all of this because you can move to the parent folder with the [Left shift] [UPDIR] (on the [VAR] key).

To enter complex numbers like 1+2i: [Left Shift] [(] 1 [Right Shift] [,] 2 [ENTER].

Although the keys have moved around, you may find one of the 48-series manuals easier to use. They describe the functionality in RPN mode with soft menus and without so many assumptions as the 50g manual. It's much easier to get through.

Others have noted that you can type "MENU" to execute the MENU command. This highlights a big difference between the RPN and RPL models: the command line. On RPL models, when you type something, you're actually typing in a program. When you then press [ENTER], the calculator compiles and executes the program. Most programs like this are very simple, like "enter this single number" or "execute the MENU command." For example, entering "1 [SPC] 2 [SPC] 3 [ENTER]" will push 1, 2, and 3 on the stack. The [ENTER] key just tells the calculator to compile and execute what you've written. Other keys like [+] and [SIN] append their function to the program and then automatically execute the whole thing.