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New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - fy789 - 08-27-2024 02:38 PM
Hi all,
I saw tons of HP calculator clones popping up on EBAY:
HP11C, HP15C, HP16C, HP41c, HP41CX, ..... to name a few
How about Sharp pocket computer clones, as most of
them are not available anymore? Even SHARP was
defunct and the brand was acquired by Taiwanese
comapny Foxconn/Hon Hai Precision.
A few interested machines:
PC-1600
PC-G850VS
PC-E500
PC-1600 is the oldest, it has 2 CPUs, but limited user ram
and poor LCD screen. It was and is still very expensive if you
can find one with good condition on EBAY.
PC-G850VS has the best LCD screen, but very limited memory,
and poor keyboard.
PC-E500 is probably the most powerful one with a good file system,
versatile BASIC interpreter, and the largest user ram area (256KB).
However, the LCD is not that good.
So, if someone build a super PC-E500, with the PC-G850 LCD
screen and resolution, 1GB user ram (256KB for program and the
rest as ram disk), and USB connectivity. Will you buy one?
Of course, someone may jump out to say " I can modify my HP200LX
and fulfill all your requirements"......etc, but my point is to build a
PC-E500 super-clone out of nostalgia.
Thanks!
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - Maximilian Hohmann - 08-27-2024 03:57 PM
Hello!
(08-27-2024 02:38 PM)fy789 Wrote: Will you buy one?
I will say it bluntly: No - as far as I am concerned. As a collector I am of course interested in the calculators themselves (I think I have the PC-1600 and the PC-E500). Unfortunately the PC-E500 has probably the worst display of all calculators in my collection and is generally very poorly made. It's functions are, in my view, not special in any way so as to warrant the effort of recreating it with modern hardware.
Regards
Max
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - fy789 - 08-27-2024 10:51 PM
What if someone could source a high contrast LCD with more
resolution, like those use in PC-G850V, but better?
I am ok with the built-in software; they are not great,
but usable and tolerable.
Another idea is to make a super PC-G850VS, with
flashable ROM, more memory, better keyboard, and
an USB interface to exchange files with PCs?
(08-27-2024 03:57 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote: Hello!
(08-27-2024 02:38 PM)fy789 Wrote: Will you buy one?
I will say it bluntly: No - as far as I am concerned. As a collector I am of course interested in the calculators themselves (I think I have the PC-1600 and the PC-E500). Unfortunately the PC-E500 has probably the worst display of all calculators in my collection and is generally very poorly made. It's functions are, in my view, not special in any way so as to warrant the effort of recreating it with modern hardware.
Regards
Max
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - toml_12953 - 08-28-2024 02:36 AM
(08-27-2024 03:57 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote: Hello!
(08-27-2024 02:38 PM)fy789 Wrote: Will you buy one?
I will say it bluntly: No - as far as I am concerned. As a collector I am of course interested in the calculators themselves (I think I have the PC-1600 and the PC-E500). Unfortunately the PC-E500 has probably the worst display of all calculators in my collection and is generally very poorly made. It's functions are, in my view, not special in any way so as to warrant the effort of recreating it with modern hardware.
Regards
Max
The PC-E500 was superseded by the PC-E500S which had a great display. Also, it had structured constructs that the straight 500 didn't.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - robve - 08-29-2024 02:52 AM
(08-27-2024 02:38 PM)fy789 Wrote: PC-1600 is the oldest, it has 2 CPUs, but limited user ram
and poor LCD screen. It was and is still very expensive if you
can find one with good condition on EBAY.
PC-G850VS has the best LCD screen, but very limited memory,
and poor keyboard.
PC-E500 is probably the most powerful one with a good file system,
versatile BASIC interpreter, and the largest user ram area (256KB).
However, the LCD is not that good.
When building a clone, why does the quality of the original hardware matter? These days we have inexpensive OLED screens and decent micro switches?
(08-27-2024 02:38 PM)fy789 Wrote: So, if someone build a super PC-E500, with the PC-G850 LCD
screen and resolution, 1GB user ram (256KB for program and the
rest as ram disk), and USB connectivity. Will you buy one?
I think the biggest question is how popular any of these clones will be, from a nostalgic point of view. Availability and popularity of these machines differed a lot between countries.
I have all machines (2x PC-1600, 2x PC-G850VS, PC-E500 and PC-500S a 32K and a 256K). From a technical point of view, the PC-E500S (the S model) is heads and shoulders above the other two in terms of hardware and software capabilities. Second in my view is the PC-1600. Both are well engineered machines internally. However, the PC-G850 has a C compiler, assembler and text editor which is nice. The PC-E500S has the best BASIC, including double precision (20 digit mantissa + 4 guard digits). It has excellent file system support (both external and internal), same as the PC-1600. It also has well documented operating system calls, which makes it possible to write new applications in assembly like Forth500. It has the most addressable memory with 20 bit address registers (i.e. no need for bank switching calls). The 8 bit CPU ISA is excellent, kind of a mix of 6809 and Z80. That's why I use it and like it the best.
- Rob
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - vaklaff - 08-29-2024 04:59 PM
IMHO the older HPs that are being cloned today distinguished themselves with HW (keyboard quality) and/or SW (postfix) and created sort of cult following, plentiful enough to produce clone creators and users today. The DM-42 is still a useful tool with distinguishing features on the market even now. I can’t see parallels to SHARP, not much of following, not that much different from say Casios at that time and not especially useful today.
Not that I have anything against SHARP, quite the opposite. I have a soft spot especially for the PC-14XX models. Small enough, usable as a direct calculator, easy to take and slap together a short program when needed and last but not least very handsome :-) Nevertheless I doubt I’d buy a modern clone of them.
A small device with a QWERTY keyboard, say of the LX-size, would have an appeal to me but only as a modern full-featured device (Linux/BSD, SSD, WIFI etc). Simply a sub-sub-notebook with a good keyboard. From time to time something in this direction pops up but usually too pricey and with problems like binary drivers preventing you from upgrades.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - Dave Britten - 09-01-2024 07:31 PM
Something like a PC-1261 with switchable memory images like the DM32 would be very nice to have. I love the old Sharps, but fitting multiple programs into their memory is a bit clumsy - this would solve that.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - Chr Yoko - 09-02-2024 06:33 AM
There are some existing solutions to your question :
1- X86 based mini PCs :
Such as the GPD Pocket PCs where you can run any windows software such as calculators emulators, math software (Mathalab, XCAS...) , programming languages such as Python "out of the box".
Then you can hook such "pocket PC" to a regular screen , keyboard and mouse and run it like a normal PC when at home.
I own a GPD Pocket 3 (i7 powered) and use it since a couple years as my main general home PC. I even connected a eGPU RX6700XT to its Thunderbolt port and a 2x4K screens set-up ;-)
https://gpdstore.net/
Those Pockets are usualy a bit higher price than their "Laptop" equivalent, but quality is great (full Alu machined body) and compactness is a real positive "game changer" to keep such PC always on hand.
2-Linux based "Cyberdecks" pocket size :
There are numerous projects in DIY on the net.
One that is "off the shelf" is the Clockwork Pi able to accept with several cores (ARM or Risk V based).
One core is based on a RPi CM4 https://www.clockworkpi.com/.
I expect a CM5 version coming as soon as the CM5 is launched by RPi.
Similar to the GPD, you can run Linux based software and emulators.
I do think that those new type of Pocket-PCs/Devices are the real modern versions of our old Sharp/Casio/Ti/HP Basic Pocket PCs we all enjoyed back in the 80s/90s.
Would be nice to have a forum section about those in the future in case enough people interrested and using those.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - blackjetrock - 09-02-2024 10:12 AM
I'm not aware of a service manual for the PCG850VS, but there is one for the PC-E500. Having that and a ROM image would make an emulator fairly straightforward. You could make a PCB to match the original and put whatever processor you want on that, as long as it fits. The display is probably best changed to a modern one, of some technology. Having done this a few times, I have found that finding a display that fits is tricky, and usually there is only one or maybe two to choose from.
Battery life is usually worse, as a CM4 eats power, and the RP2040, which is one of my favourites, is not a low power device in the sense of weeks of running off a small battery.
Another option is to design a case or part case that fits a display and have that printed. having high quality cases printed is now incredibly cheap, and lets you put whatever display will fit in the case.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - 9aplus - 09-02-2024 08:20 PM
Must agree with Chr Yoko, have UConsole Black+CM4+4G on order
since Feb 2024. with hope to receive before this Xmas.
Now using one CM4 with wifi and 5" touch screen, but missing the "real" keyboard.
My first pocket was SHARP 1400 and later some rugged DOS based
handhelds. Still have some of them but they suffered moisture and rats attack
during the long storage in container while the whole world was under corona circus.
Rats love the taste of silicon based keyboards, you know
Also have some HP48SX, HP48G. HP49G. HP50 in fair running condition.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - blackjetrock - 09-03-2024 08:35 AM
(09-02-2024 08:20 PM)9aplus Wrote: Must agree with Chr Yoko, have UConsole Black+CM4+4G on order
since Feb 2024. with hope to receive before this Xmas.
Now using one CM4 with wifi and 5" touch screen, but missing the "real" keyboard.
My first pocket was SHARP 1400 and later some rugged DOS based
handhelds. Still have some of them but they suffered moisture and rats attack
during the long storage in container while the whole world was under corona circus.
Rats love the taste of silicon based keyboards, you know
Also have some HP48SX, HP48G. HP49G. HP50 in fair running condition.
I have a uconsole on order since Jan 2024, also hoping for delivery before the end of the year. I also have a CM4 devterm and use that quite a bit. It does burn quite a bit of power, turning the brightness of the screen down helps a bit, but a set of two 18650s lasts about 2 hours, maybe a bit more. It gets quite hot too. Very much different to the PC-G850VSs I have. They are definitely low power devices. The heat seal connectors all seem to be degraded now, though.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - Chr Yoko - 09-04-2024 07:00 AM
(09-03-2024 08:35 AM)blackjetrock Wrote:(09-02-2024 08:20 PM)9aplus Wrote: Must agree with Chr Yoko, have UConsole Black+CM4+4G on order
since Feb 2024. with hope to receive before this Xmas.
Now using one CM4 with wifi and 5" touch screen, but missing the "real" keyboard.
My first pocket was SHARP 1400 and later some rugged DOS based
handhelds. Still have some of them but they suffered moisture and rats attack
during the long storage in container while the whole world was under corona circus.
Rats love the taste of silicon based keyboards, you know
Also have some HP48SX, HP48G. HP49G. HP50 in fair running condition.
I have a uconsole on order since Jan 2024, also hoping for delivery before the end of the year. I also have a CM4 devterm and use that quite a bit. It does burn quite a bit of power, turning the brightness of the screen down helps a bit, but a set of two 18650s lasts about 2 hours, maybe a bit more. It gets quite hot too. Very much different to the PC-G850VSs I have. They are definitely low power devices. The heat seal connectors all seem to be degraded now, though.
Thx for your feedback on the Devterm using the same CM4 module.
That is quite an issue to get with the CM4 only 2h out of a couple of 18650 that contain way more energy than a 4xAAA HP71 style setup ....
Can't you downvolt/down clock the CM4 to reduce its energy needs ? :
A CM4 can play YT videos, run Chromium, so it is way more powerfull for some calculators or Basic-PC emulations.
Also the Clockworks computers can use several other CM than the CM4, including a Risk V one. Might be interesting to explore too.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - fy789 - 09-04-2024 10:08 AM
I almost order one of these kits, but then I read they are delivered in
very limited quantities (= long delivery lead time), and eventually I
gave up the idea of ordering one.
The color LCD screen with the backlight is a power hog.
[/quote]
I have a uconsole on order since Jan 2024, also hoping for delivery before the end of the year. I also have a CM4 devterm and use that quite a bit. It does burn quite a bit of power, turning the brightness of the screen down helps a bit, but a set of two 18650s lasts about 2 hours, maybe a bit more. It gets quite hot too. Very much different to the PC-G850VSs I have. They are definitely low power devices. The heat seal connectors all seem to be degraded now, though.
[/quote]
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - blackjetrock - 09-04-2024 10:37 AM
(09-04-2024 07:00 AM)Chr Yoko Wrote:(09-03-2024 08:35 AM)blackjetrock Wrote: I have a uconsole on order since Jan 2024, also hoping for delivery before the end of the year. I also have a CM4 devterm and use that quite a bit. It does burn quite a bit of power, turning the brightness of the screen down helps a bit, but a set of two 18650s lasts about 2 hours, maybe a bit more. It gets quite hot too. Very much different to the PC-G850VSs I have. They are definitely low power devices. The heat seal connectors all seem to be degraded now, though.
Thx for your feedback on the Devterm using the same CM4 module.
That is quite an issue to get with the CM4 only 2h out of a couple of 18650 that contain way more energy than a 4xAAA HP71 style setup ....
Can't you downvolt/down clock the CM4 to reduce its energy needs ? :
A CM4 can play YT videos, run Chromium, so it is way more powerfull for some calculators or Basic-PC emulations.
Also the Clockworks computers can use several other CM than the CM4, including a Risk V one. Might be interesting to explore too.
The time that you get from an 18650 depends a lot on the quality of the 18650s. Initially I had cheaper batteries and got barely an hour. I then hunted for and paid more for better batteries. The best way is to weigh them, the heavier the better. Which was the case with the batteries I have. The heavier ones (47g I think) are about 2 hours, the lighter ones not.
The backlight burns a lot of power and turning that down helps a lot. I'm not sure there is any clock throttling. I'm happy as I use it for editing and programming and 2 hours is fine. It I want more time then I swap the batteries for charged ones. This can be done live as there's two 18650s in parallel. Or a shutdown and restart which doesn't take very long.
I did play YT once, for a few hours with a PSU plugged in and the screen went haywire after a while. I think it got too hot. There is a fan in the DevTerm but I've never seen or heard it run. I think it only turns on at higher temperatures.
I replaced the trackball for a better quality one and I have a 3D printed cover. I also use the printer now and again to print labels.
I find it a useful and nice device to use, overall. Maybe a bit niche.
RE: New clone idea: How about a PC-G850VS or PC-E500 clone? - blackjetrock - 09-04-2024 10:40 AM
(09-04-2024 10:08 AM)fy789 Wrote: I almost order one of these kits, but then I read they are delivered inI have a uconsole on order since Jan 2024, also hoping for delivery before the end of the year. I also have a CM4 devterm and use that quite a bit. It does burn quite a bit of power, turning the brightness of the screen down helps a bit, but a set of two 18650s lasts about 2 hours, maybe a bit more. It gets quite hot too. Very much different to the PC-G850VSs I have. They are definitely low power devices. The heat seal connectors all seem to be degraded now, though.
very limited quantities (= long delivery lead time), and eventually I
gave up the idea of ordering one.
The color LCD screen with the backlight is a power hog.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Yes, the uconsole seems to have a delivery time of about a year. The devterm came in about 90 days.
I think a Pico would be a better fit than a CM4. You wouldn't get Linux but you would get an impressive battery life and it would run cooler.
The display backlight is definitely a power hog, yes. You can turn it down. The display is also a MIP type display so more of a monitor streaming video all the time than a controller based pixel display. That probably burns a bit of power too.