(10-01-2024 02:02 AM)polbit Wrote:  I think it has been well established that SwissMicros is unwilling to take on the 48/50 model despite many people asking for it. It is what it is. RPL plight is real...

(10-01-2024 12:46 PM)Jase Wrote:  

(10-01-2024 02:02 AM)polbit Wrote:  I think it has been well established that SwissMicros is unwilling to take on the 48/50 model despite many people asking for it. It is what it is. RPL plight is real...

Relatively new to this forum, so forgive me if my question is obvious, but do we know why SM is unwilling to consider a 48/50 model?

Is it because the owner does not like RPL and prefers RPN?
Is it merely the amount of work, and return on investment?

Thanks for any insight.
Jase.

(10-01-2024 04:26 PM)carey Wrote:  While RPN is a number & operation entry method, RPL is an object-oriented programming language that evolved from the early hp28c to the hp48g (later RPL models added a CAS but that's incidental to RPL, e.g., the algebraic HP40g included nearly the same CAS).

This has several implications:
1) It would be nice to see a calculator-independent desktop implementation of RPL (that doesn't need a CS degree to install and run on Windows) allowing RPL to be used by beginners as a general numerical programming language suitable for scientific computing (e.g., as an alternative to NumPy).

Quote:2) Considerable wisdom went into the development and evolution of RPL and is another reason to maintain compatibility (in either desktop or new calculator RPL implementations) before adding extensions (similar to the approach taken with Plus42 of providing sensible enhancements to Free42's 42s compatibility layer).

(09-30-2024 06:29 PM)Eric Rechlin Wrote:  Having SwissMicros recognize your effort with an additional model for your software would be fantastic. Just some comments:

1. I worry that calling it a DM48 or DM50 will set some potential customers up for disappointment when they realize it's not 100% compatible with the HP 48 or HP 50, since all the other DM models are essentially completely compatible with the models they share a number with. Maybe DM51 or something? Or just call it DB48X with no DM in the name?

Quote:2. Not looking forward to spending another $300, but it would be so so tempting.

Quote:3. I wish SwissMicros could do a calculator with another row of keys because it's so hard to do everything with this limited key layout. You've done an amazing job making everything work, especially with the double-tap shift key approach, but being able to have two shift keys, an alpha key, and all four arrows on unshifted keys would make the calculator a lot less tedious to use, especially once you add more functionality that will take advantage of the arrow keys.

Quote:Right now (aside from lack of time) the main thing that has kept me away from playing with DM48X/DM50X much is the fact that I can really only play with the browser version, since there isn't a native version for any of my platforms (Windows or Android),

Quote: and I'm not ready to convert my DM32 or DM42. The UI is so different from that of the 48/49/50 that it's taking me a long time to get used to how things work.

Quote: But I check it out every once in a while and continue to be impressed with the impressive functionality.

(10-01-2024 02:21 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  I concur with a couple of Eric's comments above.

1. Calling them "DMxx" is a bad idea as that's the naming scheme used by SwissMicros and usurping it, even for alternate f/w that runs on their devices is a bad idea. This is not a legal comment, just sensible advice for a small, tight community.

Quote:2. Using e.g. DB48X for a somewhat similar work-alike is indeed going to end up being confusing as many 'users' will presume it's just like an HP-48 and be utterly confused, or assume it's defective, or worse.

Quote: Get their attention immediately by using a different model number as Eric suggested, or some other naming scheme variation. The trailing X is good, but likely better alternatives can be found.

Quote:Al of which is not to suggest to make it more like a 48 (or a 50), we have that already, please continue the innovation and continue to create newer, and better device behavior.

(10-01-2024 09:40 PM)c3d Wrote:  TL;DR: The SwissMicros standard recipe does not apply, and they got burnt once trying something else.

(10-01-2024 10:07 PM)c3d Wrote:  I'm curious about what you are asking for here, specifically:

(10-01-2024 10:07 PM)c3d Wrote:  1) When you say "desktop implementation", is the current DB48X simulator close to what you have in mind, or are you thinking about something more like a library? Or maybe a command-line interface? Or simply building and distributing Windows binaries? I'm asking notably because of the NumPy reference.

(10-01-2024 10:07 PM)c3d Wrote:  2) I'm a bit confused by the combination of "No CS degree" and "alternative to NumPy" :-)

(10-01-2024 10:07 PM)c3d Wrote:  ...while RPL design is remarkable, it was also a somewhat messy evolution over time.

(10-01-2024 09:40 PM)c3d Wrote:  [snip

I'll try to represent them fairly, but I do not speak for them, this comment is only based on earlier discussions with them.

First, SwissMicros does something which is very smart, which is to focus on a specific niche market. Their current niche is HP calculator enthusiasts, and the way they approach it is by building calculators that faithfully emulate existing HP models. While they can improve slightly, e.g. with larger and better screens, running faster, showing multiple stack levels, or including a built-in help viewer, the basic rule is that the existing HP manuals should apply just as well to the corresponding DM model. This goes all the way down to exact placement key and labelling, or simulating printing.

They only deviated once from this philosophy, and I believe they see that as a disaster. They worked with the WP43 team to try and bring a non-HP calculator, albeit one that was clearly "in the spirit of" RPN calculators. Prototypes of the calculator were built, but then there was a dispute. I was not part of that dispute, so I can only report hearsay, but my understanding is that the creator of the WP43 project and the SwissMicros team could not come to an agreement regarding who would own the really impressive user manual. In any case, my impression is that SwissMicros derived all the wrong lessons from that, namely that working with an "external R&D department" was dangerous, and that they'd better stick to the known evils of existing HP calculators.
[snip]

(10-02-2024 02:14 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(10-01-2024 09:40 PM)c3d Wrote:  [snip

I'll try to represent them fairly, but I do not speak for them, this comment is only based on earlier discussions with them.

First, SwissMicros does something which is very smart, which is to focus on a specific niche market. Their current niche is HP calculator enthusiasts, and the way they approach it is by building calculators that faithfully emulate existing HP models. While they can improve slightly, e.g. with larger and better screens, running faster, showing multiple stack levels, or including a built-in help viewer, the basic rule is that the existing HP manuals should apply just as well to the corresponding DM model. This goes all the way down to exact placement key and labelling, or simulating printing.

They only deviated once from this philosophy, and I believe they see that as a disaster. They worked with the WP43 team to try and bring a non-HP calculator, albeit one that was clearly "in the spirit of" RPN calculators. Prototypes of the calculator were built, but then there was a dispute. I was not part of that dispute, so I can only report hearsay, but my understanding is that the creator of the WP43 project and the SwissMicros team could not come to an agreement regarding who would own the really impressive user manual. In any case, my impression is that SwissMicros derived all the wrong lessons from that, namely that working with an "external R&D department" was dangerous, and that they'd better stick to the known evils of existing HP calculators.
[snip]

Your speculation on what happened is just that, speculation, and is based on incomplete information, much of which isn't public. Please feel free to share your own opinions and conclusions here, but don't try to represent others actions and/or conclusions as that usually, as it does here, misleads people to believe things that are not so.

Quote:Regarding model naming, prefix letters, etc. there are cases to be made for and against all of the choices mentioned above, and all are as valid or invalid as various opinions about them are.

A related observation is the C47 project, which uses nomenclature completely unrelated to any prior model or series, currently likely has more users than all other 3rd-party projects combined, so the name itself is clearly not the key criteria.

• WP34S, based on HP hardware, and where the naming convention was a reference to the HP32, skipping HP33 that already existed, and where WP were the initials of the designers (Walter Bonin and Paul Dale), much like HP or DM.
• WP43, designed for SwissMicros hardware, which I would argue was a reference to HP42.
• C43 was a friendly fork that mostly changed the key layout for compatibility, hence the "C".
• C47 was a renaming of C43 with changes in the user interface that were more than skin deep. By the time this name finally appeared, years later, there was an installed base already.
  

• I chose DB for Dave and Bill to honour Dave Packard and Bill Hewlett, instead of using my own initials.
• I used 48 and 50 instead of 51 because the intent is to be source compatible with these models. One can argue that I should have used DB51X and DB52X, but I don't regret the choice, because here too I want to pay homage to the original design.
  

(10-02-2024 08:41 AM)HP67 Wrote:  I thought the 48 ROMs were officially legally fine to use.

If so, I think a hardware clone of a 48GX would sell well, even if we had to flash the ROM upon arrival. I have no idea who all SwissMicro sells to, but if this forum represents the bulk of their market, then clearly, we are all fine with flashing this or that.

I have bought 5 or 6 SwissMicro calcs over the year, I have 3 (I think) and I gave 3 as gifts. They have proven they can deliver a quality product that is worth buying. In some ways (the titanium cases) they outdid HP. I'd like double shot keys on any future model though.

Until now they haven't given me a chance to buy a clone of my favorites (48GX, 50g). If the time comes, I would spend the money. But, it has to be 100% compatible. The I/O on the 48 and 50 is already good enough for me. I'd like a physical card slot like on a real 50g, since the internal memory is sufficient for me and a card only requires power when used.

I would not be interested in a new oddball variant based HP calcs. I think HP really nailed the UI as no other calculator company has done. For me that's part of why I prefer their calcluators over anything else that I have used.

Linus_Sch post_id=33385 time=1725534360 user_id=5296 Wrote:I've poked a bit at the web version and I've got to say this: the way shifts now create 18-item menu pages in top level menus is a bit of a gamechanger. Moreso than I thought. To me, probably, the largest step forward in calculators since 28s introduced directories to RPL... rivalled only by the screen of the SwissMicros flagships. I think the credit for the 18-item menu pages goes to the WP43 project, but applying it to RPL deserves acknowledgement in its own right. Well done Christophe!

(10-02-2024 12:00 PM)raprism Wrote:  Eventually the headline should have been "Gauging interest in a DM48x or DM50x?". and telling people that x is extra. In the end there is also Plus42, i.e. still with 42.

I'm glad that not old ROM behaviour was taken over to get full binary compatibility. I don't need the old Lemmings - I would take a new one ;-)

In the end SwissMicros profits, if db48x (or db50x) is used on some devices.

(10-02-2024 12:00 PM)raprism Wrote:  Eventually the headline should have been "Gauging interest in a DM48x or DM50x?". and telling people that x is extra. In the end there is also Plus42, i.e. still with 42.