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+-- Forum: HP Calculators (and very old HP Computers) (/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: HP Prime (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: beep (/thread-8850.html)
Pages: 1 2
beep - jtamezga - 08-16-2017 02:58 PM
i miss the beep function!
hp 48, 49 and 50 normally express a wrong result or mistake ... but prime is mute!
i miss to have that kind of communication with this calculator (prime).
prime can make sounds in the future? ... or its hardware does not permit it?
regards!
RE: beep - Tim Wessman - 08-17-2017 03:57 AM
For that reason it was banned in many exams, even with the ability to turn it off. There is no hardware to make noise and doubtful there ever will be.
RE: beep - Tyann - 08-17-2017 05:25 AM
(08-17-2017 03:57 AM)Tim Wessman Wrote: For that reason it was banned in many exams, even with the ability to turn it off. There is no hardware to make noise and doubtful there ever will be.
Bonjour
Deux petites rélexions à ce sujet :
Le mode examen permettant de bloquer certaines fonctionnalités, on pourrait envisager
le retour d'un beep ou autres choses moins scolaires sur les machines.
ou bien
Il n y a pas que des étudiants qui achètent des calculatrices, il pourrait y avoir deux versions
des machines.
Hello
Two small reflections on this subject:
The exam mode to block certain features, on envisage
The return of a beep or other less scholastic things on the machines.
Or
There are not only students who buy calculators, there could be two versions
Machines.
RE: beep - Giancarlo - 08-17-2017 01:12 PM
Hello,
Like you i am missing the BEEP command (and relative HW) and the alarm command. For me it was very easy to track activities with alarms and design all the tasks to do on the 48 family of calculators.
I don't know if one day a variation of the prime will come but in my mind it would easier to develop small extention modules (like the wireless one) to have an alarm and other functions that could interest a minority of users.
Who knows maybe one day there would be extention modules to connect to the prime able to run proprietary sw.
I am just dreaming but this is a possibility,
Thanks
Giancarlo
RE: beep - matthiaspaul - 08-18-2017 08:48 AM
I realize that members of this forum are not the target audience for the Prime, but it is still sad to see HP missing out opportunities to widen the user base. This is an obvious feature wanted by many in an advanced programmable calculator (if not a "checklist item") and it is rather easy to have hard- and software-wise (now only in a future model variant, of course). Even though the processor would be capable of producing sophisticated sound output, all that's actually needed is a simple beeper and corresponding BEEP command.
I doubt the 48 was banned in many exams for its capability to generate sound (like many other calculators it was for being programmable), but if that would have been the problem, the issue could have been reduced significantly simply by setting the default option for sound to "off". In the Prime, the "off" setting could be even coupled with Exam mode to ensure that it cannot under any circumstances generate sound while in an exam.
See also:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-8467-post-74376.html#pid74376
http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-4557-post-41095.html#pid41095
Greetings,
Matthias
RE: beep - toml_12953 - 08-18-2017 09:56 AM
(08-17-2017 01:12 PM)Giancarlo Wrote: Hello,
Like you i am missing the BEEP command (and relative HW) and the alarm command. For me it was very easy to track activities with alarms and design all the tasks to do on the 48 family of calculators.
I don't know if one day a variation of the prime will come but in my mind it would easier to develop small extention modules (like the wireless one) to have an alarm and other functions that could interest a minority of users.
Who knows maybe one day there would be extention modules to connect to the prime able to run proprietary sw.
I am just dreaming but this is a possibility,
Thanks
Giancarlo
The connection for a buzzer could already be on the circuit board. See this thread:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-2176.html
RE: beep - Giancarlo - 08-18-2017 12:39 PM
wow i didn't remember that old thread.
It seems there were a lot of possibilities to expand the calculator at that time (connection to arduino, sound jack) and so on.
Hp is investing a lot of energy in the integration of all the different Primes on earth (real, virtual on laptop, apps...) under the same connectivity kit. It seems that the Prime is a concept before being a phisical calculator and HP is ready to point in the direction where the calculator clients will go (phone calcs? Virtual calcs?). I don't see this as an issue, at all if this will pay the bills.
I really hope that when this will be done, effort will be made to satisfy professional needs. Otherwise we will have to focus -again- on older models like 50g or 48 or 41. It is just a matter of understanding the way to go, that's it.
I am not complaining i am just trying to focus my efforts.
Thanks
Giancarlo
RE: beep - toml_12953 - 08-18-2017 02:03 PM
(08-18-2017 12:39 PM)Giancarlo Wrote: I really hope that when this will be done, effort will be made to satisfy professional needs. Otherwise we will have to focus -again- on older models like 50g or 48 or 41. It is just a matter of understanding the way to go, that's it.
Thanks
Giancarlo
Amen to that! We professionals are taking a back seat to the education market and I'm not too happy about it. I don't mind if there's a way for educators to turn off professional features for classrooms but please don't leave them out of the product entirely!
RE: beep - KeithB - 08-18-2017 03:53 PM
(08-18-2017 08:48 AM)matthiaspaul Wrote: I realize that members of this forum are not the target audience for the Prime, but it is still sad to see HP missing out opportunities to widen the user base. This is an obvious feature wanted by many in an advanced programmable calculator (if not a "checklist item") and it is rather easy to have hard- and software-wise (now only in a future model variant, of course). Even though the processor would be capable of producing sophisticated sound output, all that's actually needed is a simple beeper and corresponding BEEP command.Way back when, when the HP71 and HP41 where new, there were few portable, programmable things in your life that could make a noise.
Greetings,
Matthias
If you look over the HP71 docs, there is much mention of a "personal secretary" application for the HP71, with calendars and reminders.
Nowadays, when you can just tell your phone: "Siri, wake me up at 7:00*", there is less need for one more thing that can annoyingly buzz at you.
*Every time I mention computers understanding languages, I have to mention the great line in the Lego Movie:
Benny: Disable the shield! Come on! You are undermining me!
Computer: Which phrase would you like me to underline?
Benny: Disable the shield!
Metalbeard: Let me try.
[to the computer]
Metalbeard: Be ye disabling of yond shield.
Computer: Disabling shield.
Benny: What?
RE: beep - matthiaspaul - 08-18-2017 09:04 PM
(08-18-2017 03:53 PM)KeithB Wrote: If you look over the HP71 docs, there is much mention of a "personal secretary" application for the HP71, with calendars and reminders.Sure, noise can be annoying in some situations (like in an exam) and in general, when in cannot be switched off.
Nowadays, when you can just tell your phone: "Siri, wake me up at 7:00*", there is less need for one more thing that can annoyingly buzz at you.
But I didn't mean that noise should be forced on users, but that it can be produced when explicitly asked for (after deliberately enabling sound output in the device's configuration or by inserting a BEEP command into a program).
Sound is a fundamental communication channel for humans and consequently is a rather natural part of many human-machine-interfaces to give immediate feedback to user input (f.e. emulating a key click - some people hate that, while for others (in particular physically disabled people) it can be a requirement to still control a device efficiently and reliably), to alert users of problems and error conditions (invalid input, low battery, scheduled alarms), to remind users of other conditions (like "task finished", "waiting for new input", "new message received", etc.) in particular when the user's attention is required but the user may not look at the device any more after extended periods of time.
Regarding Siri & similar surveillance features, only people who do not care about their and other people's privacy use such features - and devices where it cannot be disabled.
Greetings,
Matthias
RE: beep - webmasterpdx - 08-19-2017 03:49 AM
The original design has the text buzz next to unused pads, meaning it was designed in but depopulated....was probably just a piezo device. Of note is that the CPU also has an AC97 codec built in that is capable of 16-bit stereo PCM and a mono microphone interface....so they could have, if they wanted, implemented a sophisticated audio subsystem.
But again, we see useful features removed for exam mode. Someone above suggested we have 2 versions of the calculator...one for kids doing exams, and the other for engineers, mathematicians, scientists, hobbyists, etc..
As for usefulness, here are a few:
1. An indicator, for things like when your program is done running (some algorithms take a long time to run).
2. Another dimension for scientific visualization.
3. Feedback for key presses in certain applications.
4. Feedback in animation, like games, when the ball hits a bat, etc..
5. Music applications.
6. If more elaborate sound capability were added, sound synthesis research.
7. Speech recognition and generation for use in apps and research in algorithms in that area.
I'm sure I could come up with many more if I wanted to put the time in.
BTW, there is a way to get sound right now....though I haven't played around with it yet. Most calculators will create a signal that can be picked up by a radio tuned to the right frequencies, and running different code could produce different sounds and frequencies....so you pair the calculator up with a radio and you get sound.
I've done this with an old casio calculator in the past, but I haven't tried this for the Prime yet....
Just musing....I don't expect any change to occur :-)
-D
RE: beep - StephenG1CMZ - 09-16-2017 08:59 AM
One solution that both sides might find acceptable is to output the sound to either an earphone socket or to the existing USB, but omit a speaker.
Anyone really needing the sound could purchase an add-on earphone/speaker.
Anyone heard in class can be found by having the accessory.
The downside: Neither those who want it quiet nor those who want it noisy would be entirely happy.
RE: beep - JDW - 08-08-2022 09:27 PM
It's now August 2022. It boggles my mind that no one has come up with a hack to get Beep control to work on the HP Prime. Or has that happened by I simply overlooked the thread?
Rather than offer an explanation of why Beep control on the Prime doesn't exist, I'd love to hear thoughts on how to make it happen.
RE: beep - jte - 08-09-2022 04:32 PM
I often remember control-G on the Apple ][. My dad was quite fond of including it in programs. A funny character that was a sound instead of a glyph: synaesthetic circuitry, a category-defying leap within ASCII (yet also just “one of the gang of 32” before the emptiness of space).
Some little dongles I’ve pondered include
- a little beeper (a few basic tones?),
- a bluetooth HID receiver / transmitter (for, e.g., to send command-line output from a Prime to a nearby computer), and
- a GPS receiver (this could allow accurate time to be kept).
Perhaps a combodongle could do more than just one of these things?
RE: beep - Stevetuc - 08-09-2022 04:51 PM
The HID dongle approach has been explored here
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-17848-post-156006.html
RE: beep - jte - 08-09-2022 05:53 PM
(08-09-2022 04:51 PM)Stevetuc Wrote: The HID dongle approach has been explored here
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-17848-post-156006.html
Steve: thanks for the helpful link
The mention of RF interference reminded me of my using an AM radio to pick up tunes from my first home computer, a ZX81.
RE: beep - JDW - 08-10-2022 12:58 AM
(08-09-2022 04:51 PM)Stevetuc Wrote: The HID dongle approach has been explored here
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-17848-post-156006.html
I read through that other thread, but let's be honest... Adding a bulky dongle to the HP Prime really does take most of the joy out of creating BEEP sounds.
This therefore raises the question...
Is it absolutely impossible to program a hack to the Prime that would enable the BEEP command to work? Or has such been blocked on a hardware level?
RE: beep - Stevetuc - 08-10-2022 05:46 AM
(08-10-2022 12:58 AM)JDW Wrote:(08-09-2022 04:51 PM)Stevetuc Wrote: The HID dongle approach has been explored here
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-17848-post-156006.html
I read through that other thread, but let's be honest... Adding a bulky dongle to the HP Prime really does take most of the joy out of creating BEEP sounds.
This therefore raises the question...
Is it absolutely impossible to program a hack to the Prime that would enable the BEEP command to work? Or has such been blocked on a hardware level?
Not impossible but intentionally made very difficult!
The prime natively has no software support for a beep command or a way to directly bitbang the usb port.
The early version g1 pcb did have pads marked BUZZ100 and also UART _RX/TX
https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/thread-248005.html
So a buzzer could be added. Problem is there is no software support for it in the Prime firmware.
NewRPL can be added as a dual boot to a prime g1 and it does have a BEEP command.
Magic may happen if you add both..question is, do you feel lucky?
RE: beep - KlaasKuperus - 08-10-2022 09:17 AM
This is quite a cool topic, one I never saw before tbh. When thinking about a future Prime, personally I'd like sound and perhaps bluetooth or IR connectivity. Who knows, but keep in mind all this enhanced features will impact the costs of the machine. What other options would you like to see?
RE: beep - John Keith - 08-10-2022 07:16 PM
(08-10-2022 09:17 AM)KlaasKuperus Wrote: What other options would you like to see?
Just one simple option: a "Prime Pro" model without the restrictions necessary for approval by testing organizations. Software not locked down to prevent user modification, no artificial division between Home and CAS, can appear as a USB drive on any computer without the need for special software.
This could be done with minimal hardware cost- eliminate the Test Mode LEDs and use a different color bezel so that it is easily distinguishable from the standard model.