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HP Prime or HP 50g
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07-11-2018, 03:00 AM
Post: #101
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-11-2018 12:17 AM)JDW Wrote: I just am personally curious about why there are no useful libraries for the Prime like for the 50g and earlier calcs. (And please don't tell me, "It's because the Prime is crap." Please!) The answer is simple: because the Prime is being used by the "downloaders" generation. Younger kids do a web search and expect somebody else to have written the tools they need, very few code their own. Our generation grew without the internet, and we wrote our own simple tools with the only help of a printed manual (we had no choice, was that or do it manually). It also doesn't help the fact that people nowadays carry a lot of portable computing power all the time. I can't recall seeing anybody going to college with a laptop when I was a student, but now everyone has a laptop or tablet plus a phone. I don't think it has much to do with the Prime being a good or bad product. A Prime does everything the 50g does and then some (but in a different way). I still prefer my 50g for crude number crunching, it's simply more efficient. But if you are looking for a product for your kids, they are most likely going to love the Prime, and with the same probability they will get frustrated and quickly abandon a 50g. Again, nothing to do with the products per se, but the way the brains of the newer generation are wired. Most people here are from the older generation, therefore they will be strongly biased towards old-school user interfaces (myself included in this group). Calling it "crap" is way too extreme in my view. I like the HP Prime, but can't stop using my 50g at the office. Instead of blaming the HP Prime, I simply accept that I'm too old to re-wire my brain, and I really don't need to. |
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07-11-2018, 03:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2018 04:02 AM by JDW.)
Post: #102
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-11-2018 03:00 AM)Claudio L. Wrote: ...if you are looking for a product for your kids, they are most likely going to love the Prime... Claudio, since we are considering kids of today, what advantages would the HP Prime have over the NUMWORKS? Or is it a draw? (Not that we HP fans will be very objective about this.) Obviously, the Prime should have the advantage of development time on its side, although I'm not sure just how expanded and feature-rich the Prime has become in the 5 years since its inception. |
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07-11-2018, 04:56 AM
Post: #103
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
Hello,
"Crap" I have owned All 48 models, and made the 50g. I have also created Prime... So, here is my opinion, for what it is worth :-) I have a hard time thinking about anything that the 50g could do that Prime can not (some IO maybe...) Prime is better than the 48/40 series in prety much every conceivable ways. More features, faster, larger screen... But, it does have some failings. 1) Pure command line number crunching is not as easy as with the 48, due to RPL. I, interestingly enough, find myself often doing operations step by step (using Ans) because RPN is not there. 2) Simple Unit manipulations is not as good as what you get on the 48 with the menu/shift menus shortcuts. 3) The Prime Color screen is not as visible in broad daylight as the B&W 48 one. (1) is, in lots of ways a side effect of the CAS and the fact that Prime is much more geared toward symbolic math. And symbolic math does not mesh well with RPN  "older" HP calculators were number crunchers. Prime and modern math are symbolic manipulators. And this is a main reason for the shift there.(2) We know that this is an issue, but we have yet to find a good solution for it :-( (3) This is a pet peeve of mine, especially with cell phones that are unuseable outside... Unfortunately, the color is there to stay at this point in time... Anyhow, this being said, Prime's prime target (yes, pun intended) is symbolic math, education and a more "modern" UI (read mobile phone like). And this, like it or not, drives a lot of the decisions... Prime is insanely powerful, and can do prety much anything. It is also way easier to "learn" than the 48/50 series ever was. Which is a must for a generation that does not know what a user manual is... Aout libraries: Yes, they are a lot of libraries for the 48 series. The 48 series is also nearly 30 year old by now. They libraries did not come imediately. They are great programs for the Prime, but no-one has yes spent the time to work on EE stuff. All is needs is someone to come forward and start developing them. About NUMWORKS: NUMWORKS is a very limited calculator at this point in time. They are a couple of great UI in it, especially for the stats, but altogether, it is way behind Prime at this point in time. Cyrille Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own. I do not speak for HP. |
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07-11-2018, 05:05 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2018 05:06 AM by JDW.)
Post: #104
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
Cyrille,
A thousand thanks for making time to write such a detailed and authoritative answer. I found it extremely helpful. I have one final question, if you don't mind. Why divide Home and CAS into separate modes when other CAS calculators do not separate them? Did you do that only to make CAS easier to disable for TEST Mode? |
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07-11-2018, 05:09 AM
Post: #105
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
And as an interesting side note... people have compiled and are running numworks on the Prime hardware by replacing the ROM. That is the first time a "competitor" has been capable of running the firmware from the other company. If that doesn't say something about the relative capabilities I'm not sure what else would.
 Numworks is simple, but that is primarily because it has *nothing* but early level capability. Bluntly, it will not grow with the user through higher level math and into university. You can try out numworks through the web interface they have, and you can download HP Prime's free app on android/ios/winstore or use the full version for free on Win/Mac. TW Although I work for HP, the views and opinions I post here are my own. |
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07-11-2018, 06:03 AM
Post: #106
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
Cyrille, that was a really nice roundup!
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07-11-2018, 06:07 AM
Post: #107
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
But to ensure my previous question does not get lost in the replies, here it is again...
Why divide Home and CAS into separate modes when other CAS calculators do not separate them? Was that done merely to make CAS easier to disable for TEST Mode? |
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07-11-2018, 09:30 AM
Post: #108
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-11-2018 04:56 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: Hello, Nice round up, but definitely NOT convincing for me. Maybe the Prime will be somewhat decent in 30+ years. Raw power and speed is useless if not used correctly. If this generation doesn’t know what a manual is, it’s probably because companies like HP and others don’t take the time to write them like they used to. Who’s to blame? HP was once the leading companie. It has lost it’s soul and fallen. A shame. To me, not fully RPN = Not worth my time. PS: “Le nivellement par le bas.” Rings a bell?? Engineer & Senior IT Executive 2x HP41CL, HP41CX, HP48GX, HP50g, 2x82162A Printer, 2x82143A Printer, 2x HP-IL, 2x Card-Readers, PIL-BOX. |
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07-11-2018, 10:33 AM
Post: #109
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| RE: HP Prime or HP 50g | |||
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07-11-2018, 12:15 PM
Post: #110
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-11-2018 10:33 AM)Voldemar Wrote: I like these two [Home and CAS] separated modes on HP Prime. Easy to switch between the modes. Easier than it is on HP 50g if you need to switch between approx and exact. Yes, one keystroke is easier than one shifted keystroke (RS+ENTER), but not by much. JDW: WHY Home and CAS are separated on Prime follows from WHAT their intended uses are. Sometimes you just want to crunch approximate numbers like all the pre-HP28C calculators do (and the 49/50 in Approx mode), with a maximum of 10 or 12 significant digits input and output being more than sufficient. That's what Home view is for. But other times you want to perform math on long, exact integers, or do symbolic math, or combine the two (like the 49/50g in Exact mode). That's what CAS is for. They have to be separate modes so that the calculator knows what you want when you type a variable (evaluate it or use it symbolically) and when you type numbers (quickly and efficiently use as a rounded-off approximation, or go to the extra effort of keeping all the digits throughout all the calculations). Each mode is optimized for its intended purpose. <0|ɸ|0> -Joe- |
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07-11-2018, 12:41 PM
Post: #111
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07-11-2018, 06:28 PM
Post: #112
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-11-2018 03:04 AM)JDW Wrote:(07-11-2018 03:00 AM)Claudio L. Wrote: ...if you are looking for a product for your kids, they are most likely going to love the Prime... Advantages of the Prime over Numworks? Without going into details why the Prime is a much superior hardware (more Flash, RAM, etc), the main advantage for modern kids I'd say it's the touchscreen. I don't know how many times I had to clean my screens from my kids fingerprints: on the TV, laptop screen, the desktop computer monitor, etc. They think everything has a touchscreen. Finally, one item that wasn't mentioned yet: HP has a product longevity that Numworks still has to prove. Nobody can even guess how long will a Numworks calculator last. |
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07-11-2018, 11:55 PM
Post: #113
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-11-2018 01:42 AM)Joe Horn Wrote: Yes, Prime supports complex numbers. If I were to GUESS what the author of the quote in question means, I'd GUESS that they want the built-in solver to return complex solutions, which is strange, since Prime already has the cSolve command which does exactly that. Here's the Help screen for cSolve: Yesterday, I wrote an email to Bernard, author of the EE library for the HP Prime. He replied back to me saying this: Quote:Z0 to Z9 are Global variables reserved by the system for Complex Numbers. So that would appear to be his reason why his EE library cannot be more comprehensive for the Prime until "complex number support is added to the HP Prime solver." Thoughts? |
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07-12-2018, 03:08 AM
Post: #114
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-11-2018 11:55 PM)JDW Wrote: So that would appear to be his reason why his EE library cannot be more comprehensive for the Prime until "complex number support is added to the HP Prime solver." Unless I am totally remembering incorrectly, the 50G "solve equation" interface (Num.slv/SOLVE EQUATION) that is the equivalent of the Solve app does not handle complex numbers either. You can enter it as a guess, but then it always returns invalid guess when you try to solve. This post seems to back that up: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-7838.html If you use the CAS solve command (or csolve), then yes it solves complex solutions fine and is much better at it then the 50G. The thing that is lacking in the Prime solve app interface is support for units. That is a different issue however. TW Although I work for HP, the views and opinions I post here are my own. |
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07-12-2018, 06:36 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-12-2018 07:00 AM by cyrille de brébisson.)
Post: #115
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
Hello,
I am liking this thread more and more, so much to talk about here!!!! ----------------------------------- "Why divide Home and CAS into separate modes when other CAS calculators do not separate them?" "Was that done merely to make CAS easier to disable for TEST Mode?" Multiple reasons here... In the first SW versions of the first incarnation of Prime (the 39GII+), both Home and CAS were powered by the CAS... But it lead to a lot of issues in home where CAS like stuff was creeping back up to the user generating unexpected results... But this does not explain, per-say why the separation... Early on, we though that we would need to create CAS and non CAS versions of the calculator (because CAS was banned in some locals). Separating the 2 would have helped (notice that we never did producte 2 models)... But, and by a lot, the biggest reason is that I do not like CAS calculators... Like a lot of you here, I am a number cruncher. When I take my calculator to do 27/6 (for example), I mean to get 4.5 because, most likely, I want to cut a 27cm board in 6 chunks. And an answer of 9/2 is useless to me. I argued at the time that Calcualtors do have multiple useages, and during the course of a day one might need to switch from one to the other (in math class, 9/2 is expected, in pysics: 4.5 is expected). And that going to meddle with a flag was a poor solution to the problem. Thus the home/cas divide was trully born at this time. ----------------------------------- "Nice round up, but definitely NOT convincing for me. Maybe the Prime will be somewhat decent in 30+ years." Ha, well, see, I was trying to explain, not to convince :-) so no problems there... I sinserly hope that Prime will still be there in 30 years! well, 20 years would even be enough for me as it would get me through retirement! ----------------------------------- "If this generation doesn’t know what a manual is, it’s probably because companies like HP and others don’t take the time to write them like they used to." "Who’s to blame? HP was once the leading companie. It has lost it’s soul and fallen. A shame." Having spend a conciderable amount of time writing "learning product" (this is the technical term for all the textual info in the user manual, quick start guide and build in help of the calculator). I do admin that I was sadden by this remark. Granted, we do not have the AUR anymore, however, the user manual is over 700 pages long, the Quick Start Guide is quite well done. Not talking about the on calc help (which contains a lot of what used to be in the AUR) which is around 1MB of text... I have not looked at TI, Casio or Numworks. But I venture to say that HP is doing prety good here in comparison (actually, I just checked NUMWORKS and they have a 47 page manual!). Anyhow, If you could try to give me some example of what you liked better in the previous manuals vs the current ones, we might be able to use that feedback to improve future changes to the user manual. Going back to an interesting point in your comment: "If this generation doesn’t know what a manual is"... The "If" here is a given. This is actually a test that I often conduct when I go to user facing events (conferences and the like). I ask the people in front of me: Have you read your calculator manual? Are you reading user manual of products that you are purchasing... And the overwhelming majority of times, the answer is "No", or "No, why?" I think that a lot of company have gone away from the user manual (Where is your windows, OSx, Ipad, phone user manual?) They are relying on much simpler/easier/common UI that what existed in the past (try doing a matrix addition in a 32s without a user manual? try doing it on Prime?). They are relying on users teaching each others how to use the devices... What is certain is that users are reading said user manuals less and less. That a 700 page user manual is concidered absolutely "bonkers" by today's standards (We often get told by internal people: "Look at this laptop's 1 page "user manual", with only pictograms! isn't it MUCH better than a user manual? And so much easier to translate!" --------------------------------------------- "PS: “Le nivellement par le bas.” Rings a bell?? " Unfortuntaley, yes :-( But I venture to gess that HP is probably doing better at fighting to stick up than most of the competition. --------------------------------------------- "Complex Numbers do not work in the Solver App as they do in the 49&50g." I think that the "as they do" is the key word there. complex solving does work in Prime, and is much better than on the 49/50... Moslty due to the CAS. But it does not work "in the same way". cSolve is your friend there BTW. Prime is different and a break from the 28 originated series. It is different because it evolves in different domains and has to respond to different demands... But it is still very capable :-) Cyrille Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own. I do not speak for HP. |
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07-12-2018, 06:47 AM
Post: #116
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: Complex Numbers do not work in the Solver App as they do in the 49&50g. So I've been told... Bernard Michaud Wrote:Z0 to Z9 are Global variables reserved by the system for Complex Numbers. But I still don't understand why that difference (complex number difference between the Prime and the 50g) prevents the creation of more comprehensive EE library on the HP Prime. Is the Prime deficient relative to the 50g when it comes to complex numbers? |
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07-12-2018, 08:06 AM
Post: #117
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
Hello,
2 things: ------------------- First, of interest as we discuss user manuals, from another thread (http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-110...#pid100257) "My daughter (13 years old, she likes mathematics) didn't even look at her calculator's manual, she simply isn't interested." Shows what the current state of user manual reading is in the world now :-( ---------------------- Second a 2 part question (and I have inverted the 2 parts here as the first one is easy to answer): "Is the Prime deficient relative to the 50g when it comes to complex numbers?" Clearly no. Prime is better there... "I don't understand the complex number difference between Prime and the 50g prevents the creation of more comprehensive EE library on the HP Prime." I am not sure, The Prime "solve app" does not have complex number solving (but I do not think that the 50g had it either BTW as the Prime numerical solver uses the same code as the 50g)... I am guessing that what is happening is that the person developing the EE library is trying to do thing in a way that might make sense for him and what his vision is, but does not work this way in Prime. Kind of like trying to pound a screw with a hammer. The problem is that the screw/hammer analogy, while it most likely explains the root of the problem, does not scale up here as the prime 'hammer' provide much more than just the iron head. For example, the solve app provides the whole UI which is might need and can not find in other places in the calculator (unless he recreates it from scratch, which would be a lot of work). And he might want to use that UI.... Cyrille Although I work for the HP calculator group, the views and opinions I post here are my own. I do not speak for HP. |
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07-12-2018, 09:59 AM
Post: #118
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-12-2018 08:06 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: "My daughter (13 years old, she likes mathematics) didn't even look at her calculator's manual, she simply isn't interested."That's because (1) most manuals are crap nowadays and (2) the full manuals aren't printed anymore. I only open a PDF if I can't help myself by googling around. The PDFs are usually generated from a source that targets the printer, not the monitor. I could cry PDF is not even ably to recognize double-sided pages, plus it contains hard line breaks making it impossible to convert it to something useful like epub. [I'm so happy (and lucky) I got decent and printed manuals with my 35s and my 15C LE] To sum it up: Do epub versions that render fine on desktop computers and mobile devices and people will start reading again. Or print that damn thing. |
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07-12-2018, 11:59 AM
Post: #119
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-12-2018 09:59 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:(07-12-2018 08:06 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: "My daughter (13 years old, she likes mathematics) didn't even look at her calculator's manual, she simply isn't interested."That's because (1) most manuals are crap nowadays and (2) the full manuals aren't printed anymore. I only open a PDF if I can't help myself by googling around. The PDFs are usually generated from a source that targets the printer, not the monitor. I could cry PDF is not even ably to recognize double-sided pages, plus it contains hard line breaks making it impossible to convert it to something useful like epub. Epub version of manual would be fine if there were capable epub readers for such complicated layout. I made many epub books (scanned printed versions, cleaning up epub books I bought). Epub readers I tried have no difficulties (mostly) with ordinary books, but with technical oriented books it is different thing (tables rendering and lists formatting are most prominent, some readers don't even render <br /> properly). Some readers are incredibly slow. I ended up with using FBReader which is very fast and knows most html tags and css properties, but it is still not ideal. If I look at google play at most downloaded epub readers then I cannot imagine that hp prime manual readers would be happy. Prime G2, 15C CE |
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07-12-2018, 12:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-12-2018 12:50 PM by Neve.)
Post: #120
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RE: HP Prime or HP 50g
(07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: Hello, That says a lot about the way HP respects more the students and than it’s long time base consumers and professionals who prefer full RPN calcs. In other words, Zilch.... (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: Like a lot of you here, I am a number cruncher. When I take my calculator to do 27/6 (for example), I mean to get 4.5 because, most likely, I want to cut a 27cm board in 6 chunks. And an answer of 9/2 is useless to me. Useless, but fair enough. (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: I sinserly hope that Prime will still be there in 30 years! well, 20 years would even be enough for me as it would get me through retirement! I sure don’t! LOL Nothing will beat the venerable and yet unsurpassed 41CX or CL. LOL (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: "If this generation doesn’t know what a manual is, it’s probably because companies like HP and others don’t take the time to write them like they used to." Where is it? Online? In PDF? As someone mentioned in the post just above I think, it’s not worth looking at. Not like a real nicely hard printed manual. I’m sorry that you spent so much time writing things that the older guys don’t really like, and the younger guys don’t even look at. At least you get paid for it. It’s a shame. HP manuals were THE best back in the days. (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: I have not looked at TI, Casio or Numworks. But I venture to say that HP is doing prety good here in comparison (actually, I just checked NUMWORKS and they have a 47 page manual!). If you guys are happy to be just being slightly above the competition, so be it. It’s not very ambitious... (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: Anyhow, If you could try to give me some example of what you liked better in the previous manuals vs the current ones, we might be able to use that feedback to improve future changes to the user manual. If you’re familiar with the manuals of the 1970’s, 1980’s, and I’m 100% sure you are, the way they were presented wnd written, I guess there is nothing more to say, you have you’re answer. I’m convinced that even the younger generation would care and take the time to read the manuals you painstakingly write if they had them in that format. However, since HP has been so unwilling to satisfy the demand of their user base for an newer true RPN calc, but has instead been more focused what is allowed for exams, that I doubt it cares about our feedbacks. (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: Going back to an interesting point in your comment: "If this generation doesn’t know what a manual is"... I answered that above. And BTW, I do read proper manuals. I don’t bother with PDF or in-app help. (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: I think that a lot of company have gone away from the user manual (Where is your windows, OSx, Ipad, phone user manual?) They are relying on much simpler/easier/common UI that what existed in the past (try doing a matrix addition in a 32s without a user manual? try doing it on Prime?). They are relying on users teaching each others how to use the devices... That’s a big problem. And the companies are at fault. Not the users. (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: What is certain is that users are reading said user manuals less and less. That a 700 page user manual is concidered absolutely "bonkers" by today's standards (We often get told by internal people: "Look at this laptop's 1 page "user manual", with only pictograms! isn't it MUCH better than a user manual? And so much easier to translate!" The blind leading the blind. Very reassuring! (Nivèlement par le bas) (07-12-2018 06:36 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: --------------------------------------------- I find that very sad and disappointing to be happy with not hitting rock bottom and be just slightly above the competition. (Not by you, by HP) If you’re satisfied with that.... We’re discussing policies here, not the actual machines of course. Engineer & Senior IT Executive 2x HP41CL, HP41CX, HP48GX, HP50g, 2x82162A Printer, 2x82143A Printer, 2x HP-IL, 2x Card-Readers, PIL-BOX. |
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