Base Conversion & Logical Operations: Prime vs. 28S/28GX/50g on EASE OF USE

[JDW]

Some feathers were ruffled when I posted my video below in another related thread, so I am creating a new thread here. Performing Base Conversion and Logical operators like AND, OR, XOR, etc. on the Prime is not as fast and easy on vintage HP calculators like the 28S, 48G-series and 50g. As my video below shows, even for people who have never used HP calculators prior to the Prime, it's drop-dead easy to switch back and forth between bases on the vintage calculators and it takes more work on the Prime. Some people have spent time on writing programs to make the Prime easier to use in this regard (I actually posted my video in one of those discussion threads until the feathers were ruffled), but those programs still don't come close to making the Prime as easy and fast to use as the vintage HP calculators. Again, watch my video in its entirety to see what I'm talking about.

So my question is this. Why didn't HP give us an app as a standard feature which performs basically the same EASY base conversions and logical operators as we have on the vintage HP calculators? Why is it so much more time consuming to do these operations on the Prime?

I'm still new to the Prime, and some of you may point out shortcuts to do the tasks I show in my video faster, but I'm doubtful if those shortcuts make it as fast as using the vintage calculators. I don't write this to bash the Prime. Rather, I write this in hopes of seeing how to make these operations easier and faster on the Prime, akin to what we have on the vintage calculators shown in my video. Even if some of you have no experience with those older calculators, you can see in my video just how fast and easy base conversion is, for example. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on the topic of "easy of use" and "speed" with regard to base conversion and logical operations on the Prime.

[Didier Lachieze]

Yes, Base conversion and operations are quicker/easier on the RPL calculators than on the Prime. My guess is that they are not very high in priority list for the targeted audience of the Prime.

And I have an answer to your quest for the space key (@7:00 in the video): it’s just at the same location as on the 48/50 units, between the dot and the plus keys ! It’s just not labelled SPC which is a very English abbreviation but use the more international ␣ symbol.

[JDW]

Aha! So the bracket that’s rotated 90° to the right is space! Hidden in plain sight! Thank you!

I still don’t understand why HP put a priority on base conversions on older calculators seeing that those calculators were targeted at students too. Why the change? Do students today no longer need the features that students of yesteryear needed? It seems strange to me.

Anyway, thank you for kindly sharing your thoughts about my video.

(08-17-2018 07:37 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  Yes, Base conversion and operations are quicker/easier on the RPL calculators than on the Prime. My guess is that they are not very high in priority list for the targeted audience of the Prime.

And I have an answer to your quest for the space key (@7:00 in the video): it’s just at the same location as on the 48/50 units, between the dot and the plus keys ! It’s just not labelled SPC which is a very English abbreviation but use the more international ␣ symbol.

[Didier Lachieze]

The Prime is not a RPL calculator, so number entry and manipulation is quite different but here is how you can do the same operations as in the video on the Prime (assuming default base in settings is Hex):

• Enter hexa FE: press [Alpha][3] [Alpha][F] [Alpha][E] [ENTER] => you get #FEh in the history
     
• Now select it and press [Shift][Base], you see the number in different bases : hex, dec, binary, you can manipulate this integer number (shift left, shift right ..) and choose the output base format
     
• Enter bin 11101: press [Alpha][3] 11101 [Alpha][Shift][b] [ENTER] => you get #11101b in the history
     
• Select it and with [Shift][Base], you can convert it to hex for example
• to do an XOR with these two numbers, press the toolbox key, select [Catlg] and press [B] [I] [T] to go the list of Bitwise functions, select BITXOR (next time you open the catalog you’ll go back to these functions)
     
• double press on #FEh in the history, press [,], double press #11101b in the history and press enter, you get the result in the default base: #E3h
     
• Now that we have these different integer numbers in the history we can convert them easily, for example press on #11101b on the left side of the screen, press [Shift][Base] and press on the Base soft key and OK, the number in the history is now in octal
  
• do the same with the #11101b on the right side of the screen and convert it to hex
  
• and you can also convert the XOR result to binary in the same way
  
  

So the Prime Base support is pretty extensive, the interaction is different from the RPL models but it’s quite powerful. Try it and get accustomed with the way the Prime works. The [Shift][Base] is good for number exploration in different bases as it shows different representations of the same number in different bases on the same screen which could be good for students learning how numbers are represented in different bases.

(note: post edited to add more than the 5 attachments allowed on the forum and fix typos)

[JDW]

(08-17-2018 09:08 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  So the Prime Base support is pretty extensive, the interaction is different from the RPL models but it’s quite powerfull.

Thank you for taking time to watch my video and offer detailed instructions with wonderful screenshots on how to perform the data entry and manipulations as best as the Prime can do it. I really appreciate your time in doing that! THANK YOU!

However, the fact remains, as anyone can see in my video, that in terms of sheer SPEED, the 28S/48G/50g (vintage RPL calculators) have the clear edge. Note in my video how I could switch between HEX and DEC and BIN and OCT in literally milliseconds by the press of a single button. And those manipulations affect ALL the #'d numbers on the stack. (On the Prime, you'd need to do that base conversion to numbers on your stack individually, eating up a huge amount of time, unnecessarily.) When you're a student taking a test, time is important. Also, vintage calculators like the 50g don't require you to set a "default base in settings" like the Prime does, making base conversions simpler, faster, and easier to understand and use overall.

Sure, one can adapt to the way the Prime requires you to do things, but I am not focused on adapting in this thread. I am focused on why can't the Prime do it faster and more efficiently, seeing such can be done on older calculator models. And no, I don't think it's a matter of "because the older calculators were RPL." Remember, the Prime allows RPN functionality at times. I am mainly speaking about the UI and how fast one gets from A to B.

So what I would like to see is a similar methodology on the Prime, when it comes to base conversions and logical operations, targeted at efficiency, speed, and ease of use. And just because no one has so boldly asked for this before doesn't mean it isn't needed or wanted. I assure you, if the process of base conversion and logical operations could be made faster and more efficient on the Prime, few would have much to complain about it.

Why do I even care? The reason should be obvious. HP no longer sells the 50g, so one cannot simply say, "Okay then, if you don't like the way the Prime does it, just pay $300 for a 50g, while they last." I don't view that as a proper attitude to have though. The Prime is what HP is pushing now and will be in the years to come. So it stands to reason that we should brainstorm how to make it better. And comparing the prime to calculators of the past is only logical and prudent. The Prime will perhaps never be all the old calculators were. But that doesn't mean the Prime cannot be made faster, easier and more elegant on the software side. Where there's a will, there's always a way.

[Stevetuc]

(08-17-2018 09:14 AM)JDW Wrote:  ...And those manipulations affect ALL the #'d numbers on the stack. (On the Prime, you'd need to do that base conversion to numbers on your stack individually, eating up a huge amount of time, unnecessarily.)

Not true re the prime.
Place prime in rpn mode and base hex

Enter #FE on stack
Enter #E8 on stack

Now SHIFT Settings Octal Esc

You now have
#376o
#350o

Numbers entered with # but without explicit base (so they take the system base) will be auto converted when system base is changed
If base is entered explicitly eg #FEh then that number will not change base when system base changes

The base cycling can be added to a user key definition

Code:


KEY K_Minus
BEGIN
 Base:=(Base+1) MOD 3; 
STARTVIEW(6, 1); STARTVIEW(-1, 1);
END;

Now Shift User Base will cycle all # numbers between the bases.

I do agree though that adding softkey support and an app with single press base conversion would be desirable.

[grsbanks]

(08-17-2018 07:56 AM)JDW Wrote:  I still don’t understand why HP put a priority on base conversions on older calculators seeing that those calculators were targeted at students too. Why the change? Do students today no longer need the features that students of yesteryear needed? It seems strange to me.

Actually, the older HP machines were more targeted at engineers than at students. This is one of the reasons why the Prime (and related machines such as the 39gII) is such a radical departure from earlier machines.

[JDW]

(08-17-2018 09:45 AM)Stevetuc Wrote:  I do agree though that adding softkey support and an app with single press base conversion would be desirable.

I appreciate your vote of support for that, Steve!

(08-17-2018 09:57 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  Actually, the older HP machines were more targeted at engineers than at students. This is one of the reasons why the Prime (and related machines such as the 39gII) is such a radical departure from earlier machines.

When I entered engineering school in 1989, my university (CSU Fresno) had the HP 28S listed in its Bookstore catalog, which is how I learned of it and why I bought it. So even though I was destined to ultimately become an engineer, at the time I bought the calculator, I was still a student. I therefore must assume that HP's shift is to lower level students, in high school versus college. Even so, students and engineers alike can benefit from a tool that is faster, easier and more efficient.

Again, I don't say this to knock the Prime in any way. I say this precisely because I bought two Primes for my kids (both not in college yet). And I am learning the Prime so as to better help them understand it. And since I have a 28S (my main workhorse since 1989) and 48GX and 50g, I take my experience from those calculators and try to accomplish the same tasks with the same speed and ease. And when that is not the case, I create threads like this one in hopes of encouraging enhancements. What we end users can do with simple basic programs is limited, but what HP can do in a full blown app is only limited by their will to do something insanely great! :-)

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It's much appreciated!

[Carlos295pz]

Insertar y cambiar números enteros


Operación entera (RPN)


Operación común


Función BITXOR()

[Dave Britten]

(08-17-2018 09:08 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  The Prime is not a RPL calculator, so number entry and manipulation is quite different but here is how you can do the same operations as in the video on the Prime (assuming default base in settings is Hex):

• Enter hexa FE: press [Shift][3] [Alpha][F] [Alpha][E] [ENTER] => you get #FEh in the history
• Now select it and press [Shift][Base], you see the number in different bases : hex, dec, binary, you can manipulate this integer number (shift left, shift right ..) and choose the output base format
• Enter bin 11101: press [Shift][3] 11101 [Alpha][Shift][b] [ENTER] => you get #11101b in the history
• Select it and with [Shift][Base], you can convert it to hex for example
• to do an XOR with these two numbers, press the toolbox key, select [Catlg] and press [B] [I] [T] to go the list of Bitwise functions, select BITXOR (next time you open the catalog you’ll go back to these functions)
• double press on #FEh in the history, press [,], double press #11101b in the history and press enter, you get the result in the default base: #E3h
• Now that we have these different integer numbers in the history we can convert them easily, for example press on #11101b on the left side of the screen, press [Shift][Base] and press on the Base soft key and OK, the number in the history is now in octal
• do the same with the #11101b on the right side of the screen and convert it to hex
• and you can also convert the XOR result to binary in the same way
  
  

So the Prime Base support is pretty extensive, the interaction is different from the RPL models but it’s quite powerful. Try it and get accustomed with the way the Prime works. The [Shift][Base] is good for number exploration in different bases as it shows different representations of the same number in different bases on the same screen which could be good for students learning how numbers are represented in different bases.

(note: post edited to add more than the 5 attachments allowed on the forum and fix typos)

For the sake of comparison, here's how you do it on an old Casio fx-6300g, one of the early "no menus, everything is on the keyboard" models:

• Switch to Base-n, hex mode: [Mode] [-] [Hex] [EXE]
• Enter 0xFE: FE [EXE]
• Convert to decimal: [Dec] [EXE] ...Or octal: [Oct] [EXE] ...Or binary: [Bin] [EXE]
• Switch to binary mode, enter 0b11101: [Bin] [EXE] 11101
• Convert to Hex: [Hex] [EXE]
• Xor the result with 0xFE: [Shift] [xor] FE [EXE]
  

It has a certain elegant simplicity to it. When working with other number bases, these are all basic operations, and I don't want to have to go digging through menus for them any more than I would y^x or log in standard decimal math mode. They shouldn't be any more than just a shift key away, and I definitely don't like systems that require you to put a special prefix/suffix on every numeric entry (#, in the case of the Prime and the 48).

[Didier Lachieze]

(08-17-2018 01:28 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  When working with other number bases, these are all basic operations, and I don't want to have to go digging through menus for them any more than I would y^x or log in standard decimal math mode. They shouldn't be any more than just a shift key away, and I definitely don't like systems that require you to put a special prefix/suffix on every numeric entry (#, in the case of the Prime and the 48).

I'm with you on this, when I work in Hex mode I don't want to have to specify for each number that it is an integer, I just want to type the number with the minimum keystrokes.

(08-17-2018 09:14 AM)JDW Wrote:  So what I would like to see is a similar methodology on the Prime, when it comes to base conversions and logical operations, targeted at efficiency, speed, and ease of use. And just because no one has so boldly asked for this before doesn't mean it isn't needed or wanted. I assure you, if the process of base conversion and logical operations could be made faster and more efficient on the Prime, few would have much to complain about it.

Well there doesn't seem to be a strong need for RPL-like base functions on the Prime.
The Prime has been released 5 years ago and still there is no program close to what you're looking for.

So, I spent a few hours on this topic and wrote a small app doing just that, Base functions in a simplified RPL-like environment: Base48.

The beauty of programmable calculators is that they are programmable. You miss something? Just write a program for it.
But it seems nowadays that there are less and less programmers and more talkers than makers.

[JDW]

(08-18-2018 07:06 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  Well there doesn't seem to be a strong need for RPL-like base functions on the Prime.
The Prime has been released 5 years ago and still there is no program close to what you're looking for.

I believe the "need" is there but the app simply isn't. Five years is a long time. I can appreciate the fact HP is still coming out with firmware updates and has even come out with a new G2 hardware version (although such appears to have been necessitated by their inability to source components, more than a quest to improve features and performance). It is curious why there are not more apps out now. There were commercial libraries sold for older HP calculators, and even fancy features on a card like Meta Kernel.

(08-18-2018 07:06 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  But it seems nowadays that there are less and less programmers and more talkers than makers.

Nice jab. I jabbed back in my video though with my "ruffled features" comment. :-) The fact remains that not everyone who uses a calculator can or is interested in writing code, but that doesn't mean those people wouldn't be interested in a paid app to accomplish what they want. Again, I refer you back to the libraries that were sold for older HP calculators. Nobody went around mocking their fellow HP calculator users saying, "Hey man, stop asking for new features and just program it yourself." They didn't have to back then because companies knew they could sell software add-ons if they released them, so they did and people bought them for many, many years.

If HP doesn't want to commit resources to add free Apps, then they should just release some paid apps. Make them cheap enough and most Prime users would probably buy them. For those of you who think this a good idea, a thread already exists to take your feature suggestions here:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-1817.html

All said, I believe the Prime could handle Base Conversion and Logical Operations faster and easier with a dedicated app. Either add soft menus in that new app akin to what we have on the 28S / 48GX / 50g, or dream up a new UI in that app for speed and efficiency when performing base conversions and logical operations.

[Stevetuc]

(08-18-2018 08:14 AM)JDW Wrote:  

(08-18-2018 07:06 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  But it seems nowadays that there are less and less programmers and more talkers than makers.

Nice jab. I jabbed back in my video though with my "ruffled features" comment. :-) Nobody went around mocking their fellow HP calculator users "Hey man, stop asking for new features and just program it yourself."

Our resident feather ruffler enjoys the jab and parry of the forum. This much is expected!
Unexpected though that the main thrust, the app base48 submitted by Didier is totally ignored! :-)

(08-18-2018 07:06 AM)Didier Lachieze Wrote:  So, I spent a few hours on this topic and wrote a small app doing just that, Base functions in a simplified RPL-like environment: Base48.

Apps?, I see no Apps!

[JDW]

(08-20-2018 12:20 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Our resident feather ruffler enjoys the jab and parry of the forum.
Apps?, I see no Apps!

Thank you for the link. Looks like it came on the scene only a couple days ago, which is why many have not seen it yet. Thank you for bringing that excellent Base48 app to our attention, which is much appreciated despite the continued jabs!

[Stevetuc]

(08-20-2018 09:18 PM)JDW Wrote:  

(08-20-2018 12:20 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Our resident feather ruffler enjoys the jab and parry of the forum.
Apps?, I see no Apps!

Thank you for the link. Looks like it came on the scene only a couple days ago, which is why many have not seen it yet. Thank you for bringing that excellent Base48 app to our attention, which is much appreciated despite the continued jabs!

Indeed. Many may not. But as the link was in a post you responded to, I found it surprising you made no comment. Despite the jab? Since you mentioned again the jab in your video with relish, seemed only polite to respond with humour

Anyway, it seems like base48 should answer your needs. All good.

[JDW]

(08-20-2018 10:18 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  as the link was in a post you responded to, I found it surprising you made no comment.

Except when I have come across a thread by browsing or searching, I only respond to threads when I receive an email notification that a reply has been made to a thread, and seeing I received no such email, I never saw the post you kindly linked for me. Thankfully, I received an email reply when you posted in this thread, and that is how I found the other thread. I will continue to reply in that other thread as I bug test the app.

(08-20-2018 10:18 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Despite the jab? Since you mentioned again the jab in your video with relish, seemed only polite to respond with humour

Let us put our disagreement to rest, once and for all. In a nutshell, the jabs began when your feathers were obviously ruffled in another thread by my having expanded (on-topic) the original thread you started. Without sending me a PM to express your grievance, you publicly claimed that I hijacked your thread. I continue to disagree with that assessment profoundly. Had I spoke about the merits of Johnson and Johnson baby shampoo and garnered numerous posts from others on that totally off-topic subject, then you would have been more than justified in saying I had hijacked your thread by speaking on such an absurd topic. But in fact, the title of that thread is BASE CONVERSION, and indeed that is how I found it using the SEARCH feature of this forum and is why I posted to it. So even if one argues I expanded the discussion, I was still on-topic with regards BASE CONVERSION. Whether I "shifted ground toward ease of use" is utterly irrelevant in that such ease of use pertained exclusively to BASE CONVERSION. For what it's worth, you suggested I started a new thread and I did. Now even after reading my words here, I doubt I will have converted you to my way of thinking when it comes to thread hijacking, but that's okay since we focused on numeric BASE conversion. :-)

(08-20-2018 10:18 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  ...it seems like base48 should answer your needs.

Indeed, but such is not exclusive to me nor centered on me. That other thread was posted in a public forum without any dedication to me, and I am pleased by that, seeing it is for the public good. It's a wonderful app that should be on every Prime. May it please Prime users the world 'round! And thank you again for alerting myself and everyone else here about it. I certainly appreciate that.

[Stevetuc]

(08-21-2018 12:15 AM)JDW Wrote:  

(08-20-2018 10:18 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  as the link was in a post you responded to, I found it surprising you made no comment.

Except when I have come across a thread by browsing or searching, I only respond to threads when I receive an email notification that a reply has been made to a thread, and seeing I received no such email, I never saw the post you kindly linked for me. Thankfully, I received an email reply when you posted in this thread, and that is how I found the other thread. I will continue to reply in that other thread as I bug test the app.

(08-20-2018 10:18 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  Despite the jab? Since you mentioned again the jab in your video with relish, seemed only polite to respond with humour

Let us put our disagreement to rest, once and for all. In a nutshell, the jabs began when your feathers were obviously ruffled in another thread by my having expanded (on-topic) the original thread you started. Without sending me a PM to express your grievance, you publicly claimed that I hijacked your thread. I continue to disagree with that assessment profoundly. Had I spoke about the merits of Johnson and Johnson baby shampoo and garnered numerous posts from others on that totally off-topic subject, then you would have been more than justified in saying I had hijacked your thread by speaking on such an absurd topic. But in fact, the title of that thread is BASE CONVERSION, and indeed that is how I found it using the SEARCH feature of this forum and is why I posted to it. So even if one argues I expanded the discussion, I was still on-topic with regards BASE CONVERSION. Whether I "shifted ground toward ease of use" is utterly irrelevant in that such ease of use pertained exclusively to BASE CONVERSION. For what it's worth, you suggested I started a new thread and I did. Now even after reading my words here, I doubt I will have converted you to my way of thinking when it comes to thread hijacking, but that's okay since we focused on numeric BASE conversion. :-)

(08-20-2018 10:18 PM)Stevetuc Wrote:  ...it seems like base48 should answer your needs.

Indeed, but such is not exclusive to me nor centered on me. That other thread was posted in a public forum without any dedication to me, and I am pleased by that, seeing it is for the public good. It's a wonderful app that should be on every Prime. May it please Prime users the world 'round! And thank you again for alerting myself and everyone else here about it. I certainly appreciate that.

Happy to bring to rest. I think your fascinating post makes my case much more profoundly than I ever could!