Sad News - greendyk.nl Website Closing Down

[Thomas Okken]

(12-12-2018 07:34 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  I always used a very low bandwidth thereafter, and that allowed me to update my copies.

Do you mean you have an up-to-date snapshot?

If no, how low a bandwidth did you use? I was thinking of trying wget with --wait or --limit-rate, so as to not cause a lot of load on the server, and maybe --user-agent to make it a bit less obvious. The volume of content at greendyk.nl isn't all that large, or at least the manuals aren't, so even if one were to download it at a rate of, say, one request per minute, it wouldn't take forever. But if someone has already succeeded in taking a complete snapshot, there isn't much point in other people doing the same.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(12-12-2018 12:43 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  

(12-12-2018 07:34 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  I always used a very low bandwidth thereafter, and that allowed me to update my copies.

Do you mean you have an up-to-date snapshot?

If no, how low a bandwidth did you use? I was thinking of trying wget with --wait or --limit-rate, so as to not cause a lot of load on the server, and maybe --user-agent to make it a bit less obvious. The volume of content at greendyk.nl isn't all that large, or at least the manuals aren't, so even if one were to download it at a rate of, say, one request per minute, it wouldn't take forever. But if someone has already succeeded in taking a complete snapshot, there isn't much point in other people doing the same.

No, not an up-to-date snapshot as of today. It was when I did it :) (I don't remember exactly when, but many months ago for sure). I've seen that a few more content was added in the meanwhile.
I'll have to scavenge a couple computers to find when, and using exactly what parameters.
I think I went as low as a few kbps.

[rprosperi]

(12-12-2018 11:09 AM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Good morning,

two things:

1. I have plenty of non-bandwidth-limited webspace left in my package. If the author of the greendyk.nl site reads this forum and is interested, I would let him use as much of it as he requires to keep his resources online.
2. As good and complete as these online manuals are, I personally prefer them to be downloadable as a single file (.pdf or .epub) for offline reading on a portable device in a dedicated reader app. As it is now, online access and a web browser are required to access these documents.

Regards
Max

I made a similar offer (to re-host) directly to the author and he politely declined.

Regarding online vs. local PDF copy preference:

If I need to search a manual extensively, I find the PDF copies generally easier to use and also these are better if I need to print a portion.

But if I just want to read a chapter or section, I find these easier on the eyes, more clear and ultimately more satisfying.

These versions combine the beauty of the original HP manuals with the convenience of not having to locate and handle the original copy. I have all these original manuals, but they are carefully stored, and I prefer to handle them minimally to help preserve their condition.

Finally, while I am not a user or fan of Telecaster guitars, I am a fan of the Thunderbirds, and the coverage here is good for introduction to new fans or as a quick reference link when conversing with others.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(12-12-2018 02:10 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  I made a similar offer (to re-host) directly to the author and he politely declined.

Very strange. Reproducing all those manuals must have been an enormous effort. I can't even imagine how he did it? Either he typed in the complete text or he scanned and OCR-d and massively edited it afterwards. And then added the illustrations (many of which are not just scans but made by himself) and created that website structure with all those crosslinks from it. That must have required many months of meticulous work. Why just let that disappear over night?

Regards
Max

[cdmackay]

I wondered whether he/she has had a take-down request from the copyright holders; that might also explain the lack of explanation, e.g. take it down quietly and don't say we asked you to, or we'll sue you.

I may be over-paranoid

[burkhard]

(12-11-2018 08:25 PM)KimH Wrote:  If I had the (many) individual files I would be able to combine them into one PDF and make it available where desired.
Is it possible to get rhe PDFs, then I would be happy to do this?

/KimH

I'll ask again:
Is there any documentation on the greendyk.nl which is not available as a PDF already in the MoHPC archive?
•If that is the case, then yes, we should certainly make some efforts to create PDF(s) as needed to cover any holes. If someone is making the effort, hopefully they will do so hi-res color, not 100 dpi black & white.
•If everything is already available as a PDF, then I don't see a big deal really. Sure, maybe is nice for somebody new who stumbles across an HP-41C at a flea market to have an online manual, but for the rest of us, searchable, scrollable, printable, copyable PDFs are so much easier.

To me, as pretty as it was, this seemed like a lot of effort to create (and protect) an online-only derivative that looks a whole lot like the original manual, but is really a recreation. Why not just have high quality PDF photographic scans of the real manual? So much work and protection barriers for no extra benefit over a PDF... I never understood the point I guess.

[hpcalcuser83]

These manuals are a great resource. They are unique and offer a nice alternative to scanned PDFs that are available elsewhere. It is a shame that in this day and age that they cannot be archived for future reference in some fashion. I am hopeful that these manuals will reappear somewhere. Would be glad to pay a fair price for manuals in this format.

[EugeneNine]

I get a 403 denied, someone who had my IP prior must have been naughty.

is there a list of what manuals are available?

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(12-12-2018 04:46 PM)EugeneNine Wrote:  is there a list of what manuals are available?

This is what the page looks like 13 days before doomsday. The top two rows refer to the HP-41C and accessories.

NB: Some of the manuals can be found online as .pdf files, e.g. here: http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/tubepage.php?item=14

[tcab]

I was able to download a hp85 manual from Manualslib and was initially hopeful that it was in colour because their cover was in colour. Unfortunately upon examining the rest of the pdf, it is just black and white. Nothing like the beautiful colour scans of the greendyk site version.

I have the hp museum DVD’s but haven’t checked yet whether that hp85 manual is in colour - I suspect not.

[John Keith]

(12-12-2018 03:33 PM)cdmackay Wrote:  I wondered whether he/she has had a take-down request from the copyright holders; that might also explain the lack of explanation, e.g. take it down quietly and don't say we asked you to, or we'll sue you.

I may be over-paranoid

That was my guess as well. This kind of thing is happening more and more as copyright law shifts toward protecting multinational corporations from folks like us.

[rprosperi]

(12-12-2018 03:33 PM)cdmackay Wrote:  I wondered whether he/she has had a take-down request from the copyright holders; that might also explain the lack of explanation, e.g. take it down quietly and don't say we asked you to, or we'll sue you.

No, there was no such request, I confirmed this with the author.

(12-12-2018 04:16 PM)burkhard Wrote:  I'll ask again:
Is there any documentation on the greendyk.nl which is not available as a PDF already in the MoHPC archive?

No, all the manuals on his website are available in PDF form, via MoHPC, TOS or TOM (The Other Museum = hpmuseum.net).

But as I and others have lamented above, even though we have these PDFs, they don't have the same feel or charm as the original HP manuals, something this author worked incredibly hard to retain. To me, those manuals set an unmatched standard that contributed dramatically to the success and popularity of HP's machines. Like Max and others have commented on, this was a very serious commitment of time and attention to detail; unfortunately, we can only wonder about the author's core motivation to undertake such a commitment, and even more confusing to me is how one could let such art go away.

[tcab]

(12-13-2018 01:11 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  But as I and others have lamented above, even though we have these PDFs, they don't have the same feel or charm as the original HP manuals,

Yep, just checked my official HP museum iso pdf of the HP85 manual and it is indeed black and white. Whilst the text is pretty crisp and readable, most photos are blown out to black to the point where you can't see any detail. E.g.



I don't mean to criticise the wonderful effort in creating these original scans. Perhaps the HP Museum manuals could be updated to modern colour scans where available. Though then again, I don't really want to fork out more money for an updated usb stick...hmm.

I agree that reading a meticulously scanned colour HP manual is a joy - and a lesson to posterity on how to write beautiful engaging manuals.

[Valentin Albillo]

(12-12-2018 02:48 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  .[...] or he scanned and OCR-d and massively edited it afterwards.

This. Though the OCR & editing process let quite a few mistakes pass by. For instance, in page 190 of the HP86B Manual we find this:

" 1. First generate your ptaph or desing {sic} on the graphics display using the graphics statements either from the keyboard or within a program."

where obviously "ptaph" is a badly OCR-ed "graph" and "desing" is a typo.

V.

[EugeneNine]

(12-13-2018 02:23 AM)tcab Wrote:  I don't mean to criticise the wonderful effort in creating these original scans. Perhaps the HP Museum manuals could be updated to modern colour scans where available. Though then again, I don't really want to fork out more money for an updated usb stick...hmm.

I agree that reading a meticulously scanned colour HP manual is a joy - and a lesson to posterity on how to write beautiful engaging manuals.

Most of the scans are donated to the museum and not a lot of people have access to nice scanners. I was lucky to have access to the (HP) digital sender when I scanned the 48sx manuals so I could just stick in the whole stack and let it run for an hour. I've noticed that most scanners today don't have a very big ADF.

hmm, a quick check says they are not too expensive, tempting https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-9100C-C1313A...bJxa3:rk:2f:0

I'm still trying to find decent OCR software to run the 48sx manuals through though

[Eddie W. Shore]

I'm sad to see that the web site is going to shut down - thank you for bringing this to our attention.

[rprosperi]

(12-13-2018 12:51 PM)EugeneNine Wrote:  hmm, a quick check says they are not too expensive, tempting https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-9100C-C1313A...bJxa3:rk:2f:0

According to HP support, the latest supported version of Windows is Win-2000, so it may be more expensive than it looks to get it running again, but perhaps it also works via TWAIN?

On the system you used recently, what scanning s/w was used? Was the system running something as old as Win-2k?

[burkhard]

(12-13-2018 01:48 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(12-13-2018 12:51 PM)EugeneNine Wrote:  hmm, a quick check says they are not too expensive, tempting https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-9100C-C1313A...bJxa3:rk:2f:0

According to HP support, the latest supported version of Windows is Win-2000, so it may be more expensive than it looks to get it running again, but perhaps it also works via TWAIN?

On the system you used recently, what scanning s/w was used? Was the system running something as old as Win-2k?

I hate to wander the thread too far afield, but the lack of driver support for old scanners (which are perfectly fine) in newer operating systems is a big problem. The scanner manufacturers sadly don't care about supporting their old hardware and lay the blame on the OS maker. The OS maker in turn does the same, leaving the consumer in the lurch.

A really good *universal* (well near-universal at least) scanner software is VueScan by Hamrick software. Everything driver-wise is built-in. They continually put out updates to cover OS changes and add new scanners frequently as well. I bought my copy back a little over 4 years ago and have had many free upgrades since then (it prompts you that new one is available). It lets me use my old but nice Epson 2450 scanner which would otherwise be dead in the water. It does claim to support automatic document feeder scanners as well, although I haven't tried that.

http://www.hamrick.com/

As far as using the license for multiple computers / scanners, they say:
"You can use VueScan on up to four different computers that you personally use, with any combination of operating systems, with any number of scanners, both x32 and x64, with a single license."

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(12-13-2018 02:16 PM)burkhard Wrote:  It does claim to support automatic document feeder scanners as well, although I haven't tried that.

It does.

[rprosperi]

(12-13-2018 02:16 PM)burkhard Wrote:  I hate to wander the thread too far afield, but the lack of driver support for old scanners (which are perfectly fine) in newer operating systems is a big problem. The scanner manufacturers sadly don't care about supporting their old hardware and lay the blame on the OS maker. The OS maker in turn does the same, leaving the consumer in the lurch.

A really good *universal* (well near-universal at least) scanner software is VueScan by Hamrick software. Everything driver-wise is built-in. They continually put out updates to cover OS changes and add new scanners frequently as well. I bought my copy back a little over 4 years ago and have had many free upgrades since then (it prompts you that new one is available). It lets me use my old but nice Epson 2450 scanner which would otherwise be dead in the water. It does claim to support automatic document feeder scanners as well, although I haven't tried that.

I agree, it has somehow become 'acceptable' for scanner manufacturers to abandon s/w support typically after providing updates for 1 OS version past the original release, as most manufacturers seem to do this. I imagine they justify this presuming folks that actually use dedicated scanners are either in corporations or high-end businesses and will simply be OK with getting a new model.

Thanks for info about VueScan; it supports a prodigious number of scanners (they claim > 5000, though ironically not the one noted above ). Does the product include OCR software and if so which one, there are only 2 or 3 OCR technology vendors, so these folks no doubt licensed one? A quick look through the manual implies the only OCR output option is text?

It would indeed be nice to maintain the same scanning s/w as devices come and go, assuming it does everything I need. Their license is also quite reasonable, much better than most.