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cyrille de brébisson · 12-17-2019, 06:03 AM

Hello,

(12-16-2019 05:23 PM)HP User Wrote: Is there peace, by the way?

This is the internet... Expecting peace is futile!

I second Bernard's assessment of the situation there... it's true, I even forgot the Python nesecary "import ..." statements which make things hard...
Maybe I should code a Logo for Prime :-)

Cyrille

CyberAngel · 12-17-2019, 07:20 AM

(12-17-2019 06:03 AM)cyrille de brébisson Wrote: Hello,

(12-16-2019 05:23 PM)HP User Wrote: Is there peace, by the way?

This is the internet... Expecting peace is futile!

I second Bernard's assessment of the situation there... it's true, I even forgot the Python nesecary "import ..." statements which make things hard...
Maybe I should code a Logo for Prime :-)

Cyrille

You should code (in C) a simple list processing language
where a list represents a stack.
Let's call it "RPL"
At first you could make it an App using the system L0..L9 lists (or just L0)
Then later integrate it to the System.

The new commands would be setting the default stack
5 SetStack or SetStack(5)
RclStack or RclStack()
and later
the :tagged: referral to a different Stack:
:3:SWAP would swap the first two list elements in L3 irregardless of the current Stack

This would bring a better language for the HOME than the current Python
and make all the old timers extremely happy

VPN

Tugdual · (This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 12:00 PM by Tugdual.)

(12-08-2019 04:47 PM)medwatt Wrote: I got the Prime (G2) a few months go but despite my best attempts, I can't see how the Prime is more useful to me compared to a conventional scientific calculator. I am in electrical engineering and the type of things I usually usually waste a lot of time on (and would therefore want to be able to quickly do on a calculator) are calculating the Fourier Transforms, doing triple integrals with vectors (like Maxwell equations), checking the response of a system to a step or ramp, looking at the Nyquist/Bode/Root Locus plots and checking the stability margins, etc. You get the point. I cannot do any of these things on the Prime.

Even though the Prime is many times more powerful than the Ti-89, the Ti-89 can do more than the Prime simply because you can find a package for almost anything on the Ti-89. The 3rd-party control toolbox for the Ti-89 is far better than anything on the Prime. You want to do Cauchy integral on the Ti-89? There's an app out there that can do just that. You want to do Stoke's Theorem quickly? There's an app just for that. I can understand if the Prime was some calculator running on a 25MHz processor, but this is a device that is almost as fast as a smartphone from a few years back. Yet, it doesn't make use of all the power. At this point, it seems the only thing the Prime can do better than conventional calculators is boast that it can render a plot quicker, but definitely not in terms of functionality. The Ti-89 still has far more capability (functionality-wise) than the Prime. The prime reminds me of all those cheep phones or android tv boxes you get from china; they have excellent specs but not the software that makes use of the hardware.

Now, we come to the programming part. I thought I could maybe write some of my own stuff. Why does everyone want to have their own programming language? I am not interested in spending hours/days trying to learn another programming language that I can only use on a single device. I'm already proficient enough in Python, like most people that went to school in the past decade or so. Why can't the Prime support python? Oh, it's in development and I need to wait 3 years before it's ready or if it is ready at all. By that time, I have no need for the thing anymore.

I think I am going to sell my Prime and probably continue using my Casio 991DEX or Ti-89 (when it's allowed) and Python/Matlab on my computer for the more involved stuff. The pinnacle of calculators were the Ti-89 and HP 50g. Everything else that came after them were just gimmicks (including the Nspire series). The Prime boasts of a Triangle Solver app. Seriously? This just tells you that the Prime is not meant for people doing serious things. I'll not be buying any new calculator until one comes out that supports Python with numpy and scipy.

The marketing positionning of the Prime is a bit unclear. It is true that apps are aimed to junior high school but with a price more aimed to undergraduate studies.
The 50g remains unequalled software wise but also has at least one hardware advantage on the prime: clear LCD screen. The Prime is blurry even when I clean all my fat fingerprints Wink

DrDarius · 12-19-2019, 05:49 PM

(12-19-2019 11:59 AM)Tugdual Wrote: The 50g remains unequalled software wise but also has at least one hardware advantage on the prime: clear LCD screen. The Prime is blurry even when I clean all my fat fingerprints

The Prime display itself is as normal and sharp as ever. The blurriness you see is attributed to HP's attempt to smoothen the font. In layman's terms, this is achieved by displaying the pixels located at the edges of the glyph in different colors so they appear to be smooth, not jagged. Given the low resolution of the screen this was not the best idea, especially for smaller fronts. So it's a matter of firmware implementation, not a display per se.

I heard rumors that the screen was mounted upside down (to lower the production cost), and it affected the viewing angle, but, honestly, even if it's true, I could not see any significant difference on my G2 whether I look at it normally, or upside down.

And the last thing: I have never used 50g (why, it's a subject for different thread, but I have my reasons), but I understand that 50g has a B/W LCD display of lower resolution. Prime has a higher resolution TFT display. In my opinion, this is not a fair comparison. You have to take many more factors under account (e.g., 3D plot--what would it look like on 50g in comparison to Prime?).

Darius

TheLastMillennial · 12-19-2019, 06:10 PM

(12-19-2019 05:49 PM)DrDarius Wrote: The Prime display itself is as normal and sharp as ever. The blurriness you see is attributed to HP's attempt to smoothen the font.

Yeah, I'm really not a fan of the dithering implementation, I agree that the Prime's display is pefectly sharp other than that.

Quote:I heard rumors that the screen was mounted upside down (to lower the production cost), and it affected the viewing angle, but, honestly, even if it's true, I could not see any significant difference on my G2 whether I look at it normally, or upside down.

Yup, that was covered in this topic. I'm really confused how you don't see a significant difference when you look at the Prime upside down. Even when at angles not as severe as the pictures I shared below.
[Image: 24K80qLl.jpg]

Personally I see a huge difference between the two, especially on the status bar. The status bar on the upside down calculator (right image) is blue rather than black, you can actually read text on the status bar, the soft keys actually have contrast, and the lines separating each equation are opposite colors from the right-side up calculator (left image). Wink

DrDarius · (This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 10:06 PM by DrDarius.)

(12-19-2019 06:10 PM)TheLastMillennial Wrote: I'm really confused how you don't see a significant difference when you look at the Prime upside down. Even when at angles not as severe as the pictures I shared below.
Personally I see a huge difference between the two, especially on the status bar.

Okay, if you look at the soft keys from the low angle (30-40 deg), then indeed the upside down view seems to be better. But, at the same time, the title bar seen upside down has a color of a washed out underwear. Smile

Bottom line: I've seen worse.

I believe that we're splitting hairs here. I tend to treat the calculator as a *tool*, not as a object of worship. Nothing's perfect, especially Prime, and we need to learn to live with its inefficiencies. We should definitely report flaws to the HP design team and hope that they have honest approach to engineering, and they will listen to customers' feedback. But then it's time to go on with out lives.

(Caveat: some individuals may treat calculators as hobby, and spend every free minute of their lives on playing with them. In this case, it's an exception.)

There are things for which Prime is not suitable for at all, and simple calculators such as EL-W516T or FX-991EX perform way better. I like Prime, but if it not suited for the task, I will toss it into the drawer without any hesitation and use something else.

Darius

dfsantos · 12-20-2019, 09:13 AM

The first thing, to apologize for my English, is a google translation but I hope it is understood.
The Prime is designed for the educational field, it is not the replacement of the HP50G, rather it is the clear evolution of the 39G series.
Why? A few years ago, we studied the race with the HP 48 (SX, GX, ...) or the 49G / 50G series. We developed in them, we felt comfortable and read all the manuals that passed through our hands and we programmed them (sometimes even by hobbie)
These calculators were incorporated into our work with our programs or with the huge list of available programs.
Currently the new generations do not learn rpl and in the field of work, they do not need a calculator but specific programs that they have on their smartphone or computer
And in that world the HP Prime is born. It will not have a large library because people do not need the calculator for specific programs as we had before.
It is a demand supply product
An HP 51G? In color, fast, RPL, compatible with 50G and more ...
I would love to buy it and use it
But how many would sell part of the people in this forum?
not many
That said, I think the Prime is a great product that should be integrated with a python interpreter (or micropython) because it is the educational language for excellence today (if they replace it with another one within 5 years, the PRIME II must take that other) and if someone buys it he is aware that he buys.

Thomas_Sch · 12-20-2019, 12:50 PM

(12-20-2019 09:13 AM)dfsantos Wrote: .. And in that world the HP Prime is born.
It will not have a large library ...

Please have a look at https://www.hpcalc.org/
You will find more than 500 applications/solutions for the HP Prime.

https://www.hpcalc.org/prime/science/ 120
https://www.hpcalc.org/prime/games/ 91
https://www.hpcalc.org/prime/graphics/ 44
https://www.hpcalc.org/prime/math/ 183
https://www.hpcalc.org/prime/apps/ 36
https://www.hpcalc.org/prime/programming/ 29
https://www.hpcalc.org/prime/utils/ 48
[/code]

jesuscf · 12-21-2019, 10:07 AM

(12-08-2019 04:47 PM)medwatt Wrote: I am in electrical engineering...

You may want to take a look at EEC_Solver:

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-11497.html

DrDarius · 12-22-2019, 12:00 AM

(12-19-2019 06:10 PM)TheLastMillennial Wrote: I'm really confused how you don't see a significant difference when you look at the Prime upside down. ...

Prompted by your comment, I downloaded a few jpg pictures into the Prime. (I would not do it under normal circumstances, after all it's a calculator, not a smartphone, or an electronic frame.) Then I looked at the screen from different angles.

Yup, you are right. There's a difference. The pictures look far better if you look at them "upside down".

Benefit of this exercise: I learned about one more Prime's feature. Whether I will ever need to download pictures to Prime for any practical purpose, I truly doubt it, but it feels good to know that I know how to do it.

Darius

HP User · 12-23-2019, 10:11 AM

(12-19-2019 06:59 PM)DrDarius Wrote:
(12-19-2019 06:10 PM)TheLastMillennial Wrote: I'm really confused how you don't see a significant difference when you look at the Prime upside down. Even when at angles not as severe as the pictures I shared below.
Personally I see a huge difference between the two, especially on the status bar.

Okay, if you look at the soft keys from the low angle (30-40 deg), then indeed the upside down view seems to be better. But, at the same time, the title bar seen upside down has a color of a washed out underwear.

Bottom line: I've seen worse.

I believe that we're splitting hairs here. I tend to treat the calculator as a *tool*, not as a object of worship. Nothing's perfect, especially Prime, and we need to learn to live with its inefficiencies. We should definitely report flaws to the HP design team and hope that they have honest approach to engineering, and they will listen to customers' feedback. But then it's time to go on with out lives.

(Caveat: some individuals may treat calculators as hobby, and spend every free minute of their lives on playing with them. In this case, it's an exception.)

There are things for which Prime is not suitable for at all, and simple calculators such as EL-W516T or FX-991EX perform way better. I like Prime, but if it not suited for the task, I will toss it into the drawer without any hesitation and use something else.

Darius

That you've seen worse (relatively) is not the point: the point in this particular case is that HP messed up with the screen, and buyers paid money for it.

You use it as a tool? Yes, that's good, and as such, having a proper screen is necessary. Or are you going to tell me that a proper screen is not necessary?

HP User · 12-23-2019, 10:27 AM

Let me be honest about it: I don't easily give standing ovations, and medwatt's reasoning for the moment at least seems better, though both his and Claudio's are imperfect or flawed.

By the way, not everyone wants Python. I don't want it and many others don't want it either.

That aside, let me ask this: why did HP not include good compatibility with those applications, of which they knew people were already using them? They could have predicted the kinds of complaints given by medwatt. They could've designed some kind of system with compatibility for them. They could've designed and made the HP with all the nice modern touches, while still going forward from the previous good ones, staying compatible, and enforcing a more practical and quicker control scheme.

Certainly such a device would've made more sense: you keep the good parts from previous successful products, you modernize it, you stay compatible, you improve it, and so on.

mfleming · 12-23-2019, 05:15 PM

(12-23-2019 10:27 AM)HP User Wrote: That aside, let me ask this: why did HP not include good compatibility with those applications, of which they knew people were already using them?
<snip>
Certainly such a device would've made more sense: you keep the good parts from previous successful products, you modernize it, you stay compatible, you improve it, and so on.

As has been pointed out innumerable times in the past, the Prime is a continuation of the 38/39/40 series aimed at the educational market. Mostly the public school, K-12 market at that. Whereas the 50g, discontinued years ago, was the apotheosis of the scientific/professional market. That market is now dead, gone, expired, past tense. [Insert link to Monty Python dead parrot skit here]

There will always be a small niche market for handheld scientific calculators (see SwissMicros) and those nostalgic for past Hewlett Packard products (see MoHPC).

toml_12953 · 12-23-2019, 08:18 PM

(12-23-2019 05:15 PM)mfleming Wrote: That market is now dead, gone, expired, past tense. [Insert link to Monty Python dead parrot skit here]

Is it a coincidence that, besides black, the 50g also came in Norwegian Blue? Lovely plumage! Smile

DrDarius · 12-23-2019, 10:44 PM

(12-23-2019 10:11 AM)HP User Wrote: That you've seen worse (relatively) is not the point: the point in this particular case is that HP messed up with the screen, and buyers paid money for it.

You use it as a tool? Yes, that's good, and as such, having a proper screen is necessary. Or are you going to tell me that a proper screen is not necessary?

Yes, I use it as a tool. I use it for the purpose which I consider to be intended one. I usually look at the screen under 90 degrees angle, display digits/characters and occasionally graphs, and, albeit not perfect, I learned how to deal with imperfections.

So I don't jump up yelling that it's trash. I paid for it what I paid for it, and if I found it not acceptable, I would return it, sell it, give it to somebody, or throw it away, since in my life I learned how to accept bigger losses--and go on.

You may have your opinion, I may have mine, but the point it to discuss it without jumping up and down, since it leads to nowhere. But, I guess, wisdom comes with age.

Calm down, and have a Merry Christmas.

Darius

Joe Horn · 12-23-2019, 11:03 PM

The "logic" seems to be:

Ok, yes, I admit that the HP Prime is GOOD ...
... but I can think of ways it could be better ...
... but that means it's NOT better ...
... but NOT means the OPPOSITE of ...
... and the opposite of BETTER is WORSE ...
... and WORSE means MORE BAD ...
... therefore the Prime is BAD.

Since the conclusion contradicts what we started with, this logic is fallacious. Just because you can think of ways of improving something does not mean that it is bad.

Disclaimer: The above was my opinion when I wrote it, but might not be my opinion any longer by time you read it, so as DrDarius wisely wrote, calm down and have a Merry Christmas. Big Grin

ijabbott · 12-24-2019, 09:21 AM

(12-23-2019 08:18 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(12-23-2019 05:15 PM)mfleming Wrote: That market is now dead, gone, expired, past tense. [Insert link to Monty Python dead parrot skit here]

Is it a coincidence that, besides black, the 50g also came in Norwegian Blue? Lovely plumage!

I thought my 49G was pining for the fjords, but it was fine once I'd changed the batteries.

HP User · 12-24-2019, 05:42 PM

Some assume I am not calm. How fallacious, but I've come to expect faulty argumentation on this forum (as I've come across in most places in the world). Are you thinking you're able to read people's states by typed words on a forum?

As for the comment about that market being dead (but then changing it to being niche)... the Prime being a continuation of such and such.... So? The matter still stands. They could've easily pleased more people. And is it so difficult to predict that those who use that 50g would expect the Prime to do so? And is it so difficult to implement a much better navigation/control system? Who was the usability overseer? And why not have two versions, if you really care about those markets? They seem to update often enough.... May as well do a much greater and adapted version instead.

As for the comment concerning opinion... Certainly you know that objectivity exists, and that you are acting accordingly many times each day your whole life already? It isn't a large jump to then act accordingly all the way also in this. There's no need to reduce things, if you are indeed doing it, to mere opinion.

As for the careless comment in a certain context, of wisdom coming with age.... I've encountered many old fools, sometimes acting like old foolish (arrogant) "kings", even highly educated people being foolish (old or young), and young wise ones. What is your point? (You seem to think yourself wise, so then please educate me in this matter.)

Joe Horn · 12-24-2019, 06:15 PM

(12-24-2019 05:42 PM)HP User Wrote: ... I've come to expect faulty argumentation on this forum ...

And a Merry Christmas to you too.

CyberAngel · 12-24-2019, 07:36 PM

(12-24-2019 06:15 PM)Joe Horn Wrote:
(12-24-2019 05:42 PM)HP User Wrote: ... I've come to expect faulty argumentation on this forum ...

And a Merry Christmas to you too.

Happy Hanukkah!