What would you like to see in a future HP Prime II? (HP Prime², HP Prime 2X)

[grsbanks]

(04-06-2020 02:42 PM)Dands Wrote:  IF HP was to release a totally new model, what would you like to see?

What I would like to see is probably incompatible with the educational direction that HP seem to have taken, but I'll put it out there nonetheless.

I would like to see a machine with the power and format of the Prime G2 but with a full implementation of RPL, without the bugs introduced in the HP 50g by Kinpo (alarms not working properly for starters).

If something like that saw the light of day I'd be first in line to grab one, even if it meant selling off some of my HP 50g units!

[andylithia]

(04-07-2020 07:14 AM)grsbanks Wrote:  

(04-06-2020 02:42 PM)Dands Wrote:  IF HP was to release a totally new model, what would you like to see?

What I would like to see is probably incompatible with the educational direction that HP seem to have taken…

Totally agreed. Today most professionals and academics do their heavy calculations on PC anyways. I hope HP can find a way to allow SDK programming. For example: give the user a choice to blow a fuse to access the third-party program loader, and the fuse is hard wired to the exam-mode LEDs, or whatever.

[CyberAngel]

(04-07-2020 12:22 AM)toml_12953 Wrote:  

(04-06-2020 08:53 PM)Dands Wrote:  Would you guys trade the mechanical keys for a huge cellphone-like calculator?

NO! If there are no mechanical keys, you might as well run it on a smartphone. The feel of the keys can never be replaced for me. Even haptic feedback doesn't do it for me.

There are three major designs that come to my mind:
_________________________________________________________
EDIT: the LCD's pixel ratio MUST allow the old software to run properly.
Thus the OS would handle a double tall LCD to use only the lower part
with the old apps before the OS is upgraded to deal with proper dual display.
When a double resolution (320x240 -> 640x480/960) LCD hardware is selected
then the coarse old pixel resolution is the default - not the new one -
and an optional parameter is needed for every plotting, etc. command.
Also the keyboard layout MUST be exactly the same.
USB-C is ok. Add also standard headphone jack, and a uSD card slot!
_______________________________________________________
Only one device is needed!
The HP Prime²

1)
It looks almost the same as the old HP Prime,
but there are pogo pins in the back
(like on a Doogee S90 phone, search it).
The user can purchase a phone module
that attaches to the back of the calculator.
(or make an operator deal with a monthly plan).
and it has its own swappable, yet protected battery
with exactly the same size on both units.

This Android phone offers χCas etc. via Google Play.
The calculator has an HP-41C style keyboard overlay.
New:
Also the [ Shift ] acts in three stages, ↑s, ↑↑s, ,
just like [ ALPHA ] and [ User ].
The original HP Prime can be easily updated to ↑↑s.
2)
In this version the display is twice as tall
thus allowing two screens at once!
(almost like on the Casio Classpad)
Plot above and Symb or Num below.
Later more and more functionality can be added.
Perhaps even running a debugger like this:
Program screen on the top part
and the color-coded code at the bottom
showing each step highlighted as it runs.
Note:
pogo pins are also there for the (long) phone module.
3)
While prolonged phones are everywhere
a longish calculator might seem odd (to some).
Therefore I suggest a clam shell design
with a double sized display on the left side
and the original sized keyboard on the right.
This would eliminate the need for a screen cover,
while providing the most pocketable device size.
The display needs to be very thin, yet sturdy.
Note:
Once again a phone module is provided separately.
A phone operator could sell it with a monthly plan.
Actually they should be sold together!
On Exams:
A student can easily separate the units,
which will totally shut down the phone part.
The calculator will reboot for clean, primary use.
Final remark – remember the Slogan:

Only one device is needed!
The HP Prime²
– –
VPN
PS: HP Inc. (HPQ), use at will!

[John Keith]

(04-06-2020 11:20 PM)StephenG1CMZ Wrote:  For the real calculator:



But alternatively, an emulated Prime calculator running on a Raspberry Pi - immediately giving full Python, C, Mathematica and other languages...

Probably not practical as both Mathematica and the Prime operating system are proprietary and I can't imagine the respective companies agreeing to combining the two systems. Also Mathematica programming is completely different in style than PPL, whereas Python is similar enough and already partly implemented in the CAS.

It has been mentioned previously that the Prime does not have enough built-in flash to hold "full" Python, which would presumably include NumPy, SciPy, and SymPy. I think that the best we could hope for is for existing Prime functions to be merged into Python, possibly as a custom package.

I have said many times before that I would vastly prefer a modernized RPL to PPL but Python has seemingly taken over the world, and doubly so in education and scientific programming. I wish that the Prime had been based on Python from the beginning, but I hope it will continue to move in that direction.

[TheLastMillennial]

Wouldn't this be called the HP Prime G3?

For the hardware, I'd like to see only a few major changes. First, get an LCD that has better viewing angles, and put it right side up! While you're at it, if you can shrink the bezels even farther, that would be very nice for keeping the overall size but gaining more screen. I'd only like to see a resolution bump to 720p just so we can have proper Windows IOT show up on it.

I'd also like to see the HP Prime be made out of plastic that's a lot more scratch resistant than the current. Also, change the screws on the battery cover so they're like the ones on the TI 84 Plus CE so they can't fall out of the shell and get lost. Replace the micro-USB with USB type C. This will keep the Prime pretty up-to-date in terms of ports and if thunderbolt is supported then it could add the ability for external displays too. Also, USB and HID support (for keyboards) would be a very nice touch. Finally, an undo key.

There's a lot I'd like to keep from the current Prime. First off, keep sharing batteries from smartphones! The fact you can increase the original Prime's battery from 1,500mAh to 2,500mAh is fantastic! Keep the current button feel (or make the calculator an inch thicker just to add fully mechanical keys ). Keep the high refresh rate capabilities! Keep using Phillips head screws instead of some proprietary screw or a form of Torx. Also, keep all the screws visible without needing a heat gun unlike the Nspire. Finally, keep the awesome CPU, RAM, ROM, and RTC specs (or improve them farther!)

Honestly I'm still not a big fan of the current software setup; I'll try to keep this section small though. I'd like to see the soft keys either customizable, or optionally removed to make the input space taller and easier to click on. I'd also really like to see full micro Python support. Chained history edits like on the Casio Classpad has would be really nice. Better error descriptions is a must. I agree with Solver that the current ones really don't help you understand what you've done wrong. I'd also like to select a program in the program menu then decide whether to run or edit it rather than immediately editing it (this could be added to the current Prime ). Finally, a parametric 3D grapher, because it has been years without one for some reason.

There are still a few things I'd like to keep from the software. Mostly the menu with time in the top right. I really love how you can tap it to get a quick menu of the date, and quickly switch from degrees to radians and vice versa. Keep the ability to scroll across large equations that don't fit on the screen. Finally, keep the copy and paste functions, those are super nice.

Those are my main points that I think are feasible. If those were implemented, I'd have the ideal HP Prime.

A few nice to haves would be backlit keys and some water resistance built in.

[ramon_ea1gth]

I agree with some posts written in this thread: the current G2 hardware is great. I want a calculator to perform my work with a minimum of tools and avoid distractions. For more demanding tasks or when I am ready with my ideas, I go to the computer: more powerful and… with Internet. Higher graphical capabilities can be purely cosmetic and lead to more power consumption: I don’t expect that from a calculator.

About the current G2 hardware, there are some minor issues to me:

• The angle of view of the screen (yes: the screen polarisers are upside-down).
• The orange lettering combined with the white keys: not the best contrast. Maybe something brown?
  

But for sure, I really prefer that efforts are driven at polishing details of the current software setup. After some days analysing my new HP-Prime, and comparing it with my HP 50g, these are the usability features I miss:
- A more agile keyboard/touch screen operation:

• As written in a previous post, I miss some kind of [LastMENU] and [LastCMD] softkeys to reuse the last operations at one touch (https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-1817-page-6.html).
• Some more edition options while editing a program on the calculator, e.g.: double touch to select a word in the text, triple touch to select a line.
  

- Custom softkey menus:

• Currently there is a DRAWMENU command that can be combined with the coordinates given by the MOUSE command. I would like an easier procedure to display the custom menu while working at Home or CAS, as it was implemented in previous models, e.g., {{“MENUITEM1”, user_programA} { “MENUITEM2”, variableB} "StringtoOutput"}.
  

As said, when I use the calculator, I don’t expect to have a computer next to me most of the time (for documents I use an e-reader). I have to say that the more I check the machine with the HP Prime manuals but also with the GIAC/XCAS specific manuals, the more I see that the software capabilities are awesome.

[Jake Schwartz]

(04-07-2020 09:10 AM)CyberAngel Wrote:  3)
While prolonged phones are everywhere
a longish calculator might seem odd (to some).
Therefore I suggest a clam shell design
with a double sized display on the left side
and the original sized keyboard on the right.
This would eliminate the need for a screen cover,
while providing the most pocketable device size.
The display needs to be very thin, yet sturdy.

– –
VPN

I guess history tends to repeat itself (or at least "rhyme" with itself), as something like this was proposed during the June 1989 HP Handheld Conference at Triton College in Melrose Park, Illinois. The "right side" of the clamshell was an outgrowth of the HP-28S and the left side was a full-sized touchscreen for additional display, stack, buttons, graphing, etc:


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=========================
In fact one could say that the Prime itself is a “rhyme” with a PPC Journal posting from January of 1984, fully five years prior to the 1989 conference:



Fun stuff....
Jake

[CyberAngel]

(04-07-2020 08:20 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  

(04-07-2020 09:10 AM)CyberAngel Wrote:  3)
While prolonged phones are everywhere
a longish calculator might seem odd (to some).
Therefore I suggest a clam shell design
with a double sized display on the left side
and the original sized keyboard on the right.
This would eliminate the need for a screen cover,
while providing the most pocketable device size.
The display needs to be very thin, yet sturdy.

– –
VPN

I guess history tends to repeat itself (or at least "rhyme" with itself), as something like this was proposed during the June 1989 HP Handheld Conference at Triton College in Melrose Park, Illinois. The "right side" of the clamshell was an outgrowth of the HP-28S and the left side was a full-sized touchscreen for additional display, stack, buttons, graphing, etc:


----------------


=========================
In fact one could say that the Prime itself is a “rhyme” with a PPC Journal posting from January of 1984, fully five years prior to the 1989 conference:



Fun stuff....
Jake

Jake, for some reason I didn't see the pictures on the post itself,
but I could go to the picture's address and see them anyway.

I need to edit my design proposals to reflect the fact
that they'll allow any old software to run properly without any modifications.
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VPN

[Eric Rechlin]

I'm not optimistic for an all-new Prime, but for a future hardware revision (Prime G3 maybe?) I'd like to see the following:

• Better viewing angle on the screen, perhaps an IPS or similar panel. The current panel is awful, and the poor choice of colors for night mode makes that mode nearly unusable as a result.
• Higher resolution; 640x480 seems reasonable. Of course this would need software changes as well, so it may be less feasible.
• USB-C instead of the deprecated micro USB. At least it's not mini USB though!
• More built-in storage. What's there isn't small, but I can see more storage being useful long-term, especially if the screen resolution quadruples resulting in larger assets for apps.
  

[John Keith]

I am not optimistic either, but I would also like to see a "Prime Pro": Minimal hardware and software changes, just remove the test mode LEDs and perhaps also a distinctively different bezel color so that teachers and test proctors can tell it at a glance.

Most importantly, unlocked OS flash so that alternative OS's such as New RPL can be added without hardware mods. Along with Eric's proposals, the Prime Pro G3 would be a true enthusiast's calculator.

I realize that education is the main market for calculators today but the small cost of the changes just might make the Pro feasible. We can still dream, can't we?

[Jacob Wall]

Ok, I'll engage because it's fun to think about to have a more Pro device:
- No CAS, for my use I don't need it
- Either one or both of a) microSD card, b) more memory, and simpler method to transfer files (no CK, calculator shows up as drive)
- Bluetooth communications, would be a fun device to use to control all sorts of things (think smart devices around the home for example)
- Support for a major programming language, Python would probably be suitable

[John Keith]

(04-13-2020 12:02 AM)Jacob Wall Wrote:  Ok, I'll engage because it's fun to think about to have a more Pro device:
- No CAS, for my use I don't need it
- Either one or both of a) microSD card, b) more memory, and simpler method to transfer files (no CK, calculator shows up as drive)
- Bluetooth communications, would be a fun device to use to control all sorts of things (think smart devices around the home for example)
- Support for a major programming language, Python would probably be suitable

Bluetooth and SD card support would be nice but require hardware changes. One feature I forgot to mention is real Wi-Fi, which can be done without hardware changes, although a dongle may be required.

I don't use CAS functions very often but I do use large integers which are supported by the CAS, not Home. Also the G2 has gobs of memory so removing the CAS would serve no purpose that I can see.

It would also be great to get rid of the 10000 digit limitation for integers and the 10000 element limitation for lists and arrays but that may require major software changes.

[Jacob Wall]

(04-13-2020 10:52 PM)John Keith Wrote:  I don't use CAS functions very often but I do use large integers which are supported by the CAS, not Home. Also the G2 has gobs of memory so removing the CAS would serve no purpose that I can see.

It would also be great to get rid of the 10000 digit limitation for integers and the 10000 element limitation for lists and arrays but that may require major software changes.

I mentioned "no CAS" because the way the Prime currently is set up is like a split personality. Maybe the CAS would be better suited as an optional module or app somehow? For me anyways.

Removing limitations for maximum elements and digits I presume is a function of available RAM?

I forgot to mention better RPN mode, intuitive (to me anyways) methods of entering, editing and working with lists, vectors and matrices directly from the stack like the 50g was fantastic. Heck, currently in RPN mode the right cursor doesn't even SWAP the top two levels of the stack. Small detail, but which if you're used to the 50g in RPN mode will probably be a bit of a let down.

Last thought (for now), I think having the function keys for the menu would still be great even with the touchscreen.

[Dands]

Every other CAS calculator in the market today has the CAS capabilities built in with the "home" calculator screen. I think it would be great if the Prime combined the two seamlessly. Integrated commands, variables, etc. Problem solved.

[Pjwum]

Prime 2? I'll tick some boxes:

X Make Home and CAS consistent
X Implement a proper file system, with directories and sd card slot, make saving CAS history possible
X Implement Python
□ RPN and RPL are not needed; give us a new 35s instead

[John Keith]

(04-14-2020 04:10 AM)Jacob Wall Wrote:  Removing limitations for maximum elements and digits I presume is a function of available RAM?

Hardly. The 50g can easily handle integers over 50000 digits although slowly on the physical calculator. The Prime has many times the RAM of the 50g, so that can't be the issue. I would guess that the limits are there to simplify memory management but I have no actual knowledge of how the Prime works internally.

[CyberAngel]

(04-14-2020 04:15 PM)Pjwum Wrote:  Prime 2? I'll tick some boxes:

X Make Home and CAS consistent
X Implement a proper file system, with directories and sd card slot, make saving CAS history possible
X Implement Python
□ RPN and RPL are not needed; give us a new 35s instead

Because of the old software base the UserRPL is very much needed!
- -
VPN

[CyberAngel]

(04-14-2020 04:19 PM)John Keith Wrote:  

(04-14-2020 04:10 AM)Jacob Wall Wrote:  Removing limitations for maximum elements and digits I presume is a function of available RAM?

Hardly. The 50g can easily handle integers over 50000 digits although slowly on the physical calculator. The Prime has many times the RAM of the 50g, so that can't be the issue. I would guess that the limits are there to simplify memory management but I have no actual knowledge of how the Prime works internally.

The Prime G2 has a thousand times the memory and the speed.
It should handle 50,000,000 digits.

Supposing all the development from now on focusing on the G2 only
we should have a new XCas version with a memory error hooked into the OS.
Since Cyrille did the malloc (etc) this can be done and must be done!
Parisse just has to remove the stupid limitations!
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[rogr]

1. A backlit keyboard would be great.

2. A system wide "back button".

3. A row of programmable hardware keys I can use without switching to a "user mode".

4. A key to make screenshots that are stored as .png files on the HP Prime.

5. I would like to drag simple .txt or .png files from the PC to the HP Prime. So to speak a file browser App with a folder structure.

[John Keith]

(04-15-2020 12:38 AM)CyberAngel Wrote:  The Prime G2 has a thousand times the memory and the speed.
It should handle 50,000,000 digits.

...

Since Cyrille did the malloc (etc) this can be done and must be done!
Parisse just has to remove the stupid limitations!
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VPN

I hope you are right about that. I recall Tim saying that the G2 has a different operating system with better memory management.

I gather that the opinion at HP HQ is "who needs more than 10000 digits on a $@%#! calculator?" I would say that if a 20 year old calculator (HP-49) could handle more than 10000 digits, why would anyone want to go backwards?