HP 12c supplemental literature?

[myhp12c]

Does anyone know where I can find online PDF's/scans of the supplemental literature that used to be included in the older HP 12c boxes? Titles like the following:

6 free ideas to make using your hp 12c easier starting now
Accessories for the HP 12C Financial Calculator
A Wealth of Accessories
The HP-12C Pocket Guide Just In Case

Thanks in advance!

[Allen]

6 free ideas to make using your hp 12c easier starting now I have a grapevine advertisement card/coupon (printed by HP?) and included in some models, but it's only 4 tips, sadly, not 6 but the title matches otherwise. (Full PDF attached)
   

Accessories for the HP 12C Financial Calculator- I have not seen one titled this.

A Wealth of Accessories - This was a common inclusion in many HP models (namely the 41/71/75.) I have 5 unique versions printed 1/86, 3/86 , 2/87, 4/87, 7/87. These were shrink-wrapped on the reverse of the 12C spiral manuals. If you're in the US, I'm happy to send you one of my "Wealth of Accessories (2/87)". PM me your address. Here is a scan of the 10-series page. The remainder of this 29 pg catalog is for the HP 18,28,41,71, and 97.
   

The HP-12C Pocket Guide Just In Case - This is a 45-pg grapevine publication ISBN-0931011124 I'm not sure it was ever included in the 12c boxes. It's available on Amazon I have one in my collection, and I've only seen a few over the past 15 years, maybe they are hard to find, or most people have discarded them? I'm not aware of a source of a scanned version, assuming it's not available on the Museum Document Collection.
   

[myhp12c]

(04-26-2020 05:50 PM)Allen Wrote:  6 free ideas to make using your hp 12c easier starting now I have a grapevine advertisement card/coupon (printed by HP?) and included in some models, but it's only 4 tips, sadly, not 6 but the title matches otherwise. (Full PDF attached)


Accessories for the HP 12C Financial Calculator- I have not seen one titled this.

A Wealth of Accessories - This was a common inclusion in many HP models (namely the 41/71/75.) I have 4 unique versions printed 3/86 , 2/87, 4/87, 7/87. These were shrink-wrapped on the reverse of the 12C spiral manuals. If you're in the US, I'm happy to send you one of my "Wealth of Accessories (2/87)". PM me your address. Here is a scan of the 10-series page. The remainder of this 29 pg catalog is for the HP 18,28,41,71, and 97.


The HP-12C Pocket Guide Just In Case - This is a 45-pg grapevine publication ISBN-0931011124 I'm not sure it was ever included in the 12c boxes. It's available on Amazon I have one in my collection, and I've only seen a few over the past 15 years, maybe they are hard to find, or most people have discarded them? I'm not aware of a source of a scanned version, assuming it's not available on the Museum Document Collection.

Wow, thanks Allen. I appreciate the scans, they are what I was looking for. I was just curious about what information they provided, so I don't need the physical booklet, but I really appreciate the offer.

Thanks again!

[rprosperi]

I've always assumed the other 2 tips were to buy the Book and the Pocket Guide.

But the advice to cut the tips section, fold it and keep it in the case, never registered until now.

For the pocket guide, I have long wondered if the tag-line "Just in case" was a tongue-in-cheek hint to keep the QRG actually in the case.

They also released an HP-19B QRG with the same "Just in case" line.

[Gamo]

I was wondering what inside the HP-12C Training Guide.

I seen few handbook for the HP-12C but never see the Training Guide.

Gamo

[Allen]

I see them from time to time on TOS.. But also hard to find. (Not on V8 of the HP museum USB). Unfortunately the way it's bound would have to have the spine cut off or extensively damaged to scan on a flat-bed scanner.


168 pgs printed April 1984 ( Rev B) Large format book 8.5 by 11" .
   

   

[Allen]

(04-26-2020 07:18 PM)myhp12c Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 05:50 PM)Allen Wrote:  6 free ideas to make using your hp 12c easier starting now
Accessories for the HP 12C Financial Calculator

Wow, thanks Allen. I appreciate the scans, they are what I was looking for. I was just curious about what information they provided, so I don't need the physical booklet, but I really appreciate the offer.

Thanks again!

Very welcome, A quick search on TOS, one can find both of these two remaining items for sale with calculators in various conditions. Both exist, but I have neither.

[rprosperi]

(04-26-2020 05:50 PM)Allen Wrote:  The HP-12C Pocket Guide Just In Case - This is a 45-pg grapevine publication ISBN-0931011124 I'm not sure it was ever included in the 12c boxes. It's available on Amazon I have one in my collection, and I've only seen a few over the past 15 years, maybe they are hard to find, or most people have discarded them? I'm not aware of a source of a scanned version, assuming it's not available on the Museum Document Collection.

Did you see the price for the Amazon listing?!?!

These little QRG's are useful and quite nice, but $ 605.51 is a lot higher than I expected.

Maybe I'll sell one of mine... I'll go down to less than 1/3 the price of the Amazon listing and sell it for a mere $200.00. Takers?

[Allen]

(04-27-2020 01:19 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  Did you see the price for the Amazon listing?!?!

I did!! There are some irrational prices. Items stored in Amazon Warehouses accumulate storage fees, but items that are FBM "Fufilled by Merchant" do not. As such, it is not unreasonable (from the seller's vantage) to price a commodity well above Fair Market value. If it sells, they make money, but they loose nothing if it does not sell. A seller who has little or no marginal cost (storage, fees, photographs, employee wages) could in theory have everything in their house listed for 200% of the competitive Open Market Value (MV or OMV). If something sells, they could go buy another one at OMV, having paid nothing upfront.

Zillow, the popular real estate site, used to have a "Make Me Move" style listing that offered a similar supply/demand logic. Sellers who were not actively looking to move, but would be willing to consider it for a premium could telegraph their level of interest by posting a "for sale" price (usually well above local market price).

In contrast to the stock/real estate markets whose characteristics of centralized markets, published sales history, and large trade volume all nicely converge to support microeconomic principles of Marginal Utility, Supply and Demand, and Rational Pricing, niche markets (out of print books, excellently made HP calculators, vintage trains, etc..) are often traded in fractured online markets, with very limited sales history (price or volume) available to either buyer or seller. Paradoxically, once collectable items are isolated in collections they become economically inert and there are no market trades to establish a current Open Market Value.

There are sites that aggregate sales prices for certain online marketplaces, but for niche markets, the volume is very low, and for rare items, doubly so. At best, an interested party might check minimum price tracker like Camel Camel, or TOS's sales history which ages off every 90 days or so. One lacks volume data and price distribution, the other lacks longevity.

I can see two potential upsides to irrational overpricing, which is enough for me to understand why it happens:

First, I have long suspected that potential sellers actually discard rare/expensive HP items that are hard to price because they don't know the market value of the $300 item. If an easily discoverable "Make Me Move" amazon listing has the item listed at $600, I believe a potential seller is more likely to invest the time needed to offer their item for sale, and usually will do so below the inflated $600 price. This creates healthy competition between the sellers, and if/when one or more of the sellers is motivated (by the need for money or market friction like relisting fees or storage costs, or the sudden appearance of competition), the price will eventually float down closer to "Open Market Value" of $300. If the overpriced listing did not exist, the second buyer might have concluded that there was no viable market for the item and discarded it. Case in point, yesterday I recycled a book after seeing one on TOS go unsold for under $10.

Secondly, if a seller is unable to estimate the OMV of a "rare" item due to lack of sales history ($6, $60, $600, $6000, ...), barring any market friction, it's in the seller's best interest to price it above OMV and have it unsold for some time rather than price below OMV (sometimes by an order of magnitude) and have it scooped up immediately. In absence of sales history, irrational overpricing can help establish an upper limit to the Open Market Value without having to execute a trade. (by overpriced items going unsold).

So auctions with $0 or low initial starting prices are useful to establish a lower bound for Market Value from the bottom up, and unsold buy-now offerings above Market Value can help establish upper bounds. The closer those two bounds are, the better we can understand the market value of rare items - without having to actually witness a trade.

[Dave Shaffer]

Interesting comments - I pretty much agree.

I have a bunch of old (1980s) PC software and hardware that is slowly going to Ebay. Sometimes I am amazed at the prices - I got ~$400 for an old PC/AT vintage audio card that I almost threw away. Other stuff can be declared useless/toss.

My logic is put it out on Ebay at a low enough starting price and see what happens. Sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. And, I have the feeling that the better you describe something, the lower the price!!!!! I haven't figured this out.

By the way, I think TOS and TAS have been confused here the last few days!?

Let's just say Ebay instead of TAS

[rprosperi]

I agree, interesting comments and insights Allen.

When I see stupid high prices for items on eBay, I often contact the seller to ask why they've priced something so clearly above the going rate (you can tell by their rating, etc. if they were able to figure that out).

The folks that are simply greedy and trying to gouge unsuspecting buyers of course don't answer in general, though one did once 'because someone stupid enough to pay that always comes along if you're patient'. Eye-opening honesty! I wasn't sure if I should be impressed with his directness or offended by his greed. So I moved on...

A peculiar (in the sense that I sure never would have thought of that) reply I got twice from different sellers (in different cities, yes I checked) was that they were throwing the item in to get it listed and used a WAG high price until there was time to look up the recent sales history and then go back and adjust the price to the 'normal' range. In both cases, the prices really were adjusted to reasonable prices within a day or two. I follow the logic but not sure if the ill will created by the offensive prices are offset by the occasional higher than average sales price.

eBay has always been a strange place, but it's also about the only place I've been in the past 6 weeks that doesn't seem to have been affected by COVID-19 much, if at all.

[toml_12953]

(04-28-2020 02:47 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  I agree, interesting comments and insights Allen.

When I see stupid high prices for items on eBay, I often contact the seller to ask why they've priced something so clearly above the going rate (you can tell by their rating, etc. if they were able to figure that out).

The folks that are simply greedy and trying to gouge unsuspecting buyers of course don't answer in general, though one did once 'because someone stupid enough to pay that always comes along if you're patient'. Eye-opening honesty! I wasn't sure if I should be impressed with his directness or offended by his greed. So I moved on...

A peculiar (in the sense that I sure never would have thought of that) reply I got twice from different sellers (in different cities, yes I checked) was that they were throwing the item in to get it listed and used a WAG high price until there was time to look up the recent sales history and then go back and adjust the price to the 'normal' range. In both cases, the prices really were adjusted to reasonable prices within a day or two. I follow the logic but not sure if the ill will created by the offensive prices are offset by the occasional higher than average sales price.

eBay has always been a strange place, but it's also about the only place I've been in the past 6 weeks that doesn't seem to have been affected by COVID-19 much, if at all.

Sometimes I list things high just so I can tell my wife (who has been bugging me to clear out the clutter) "Hey, I'm trying to sell it!"

[mfleming]

Great chain of explanation for what seems like irrational or offensive ebay seller pricing. I've always wondered about such behavior. Two things I've noticed; 1) Sellers may start out with a high bid price, relist at a lower bid, then iteratively relist at a lower buy it now price, patiently fishing for a buyer; 2) List a well known, desirable product above market value (buy it now), then issue a private offer to watchers at or slightly below MV that gets snapped up within 24 hours.

Both of the above tactics seem pretty successful, judging at least by the fact that I and others have fallen for it. In both cases you may be motivated by the idea that "the other guy" will get it before you do. Good psychology!

[Dave Frederickson]

Okay, explain this auction to me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283834513275?no...663.l10137

What we have here is a 71B advertised as mint being sold for $1675, much higher than expected for a nondescript 71B with corrosion on the "71B" badge. If you examine the bids is looks like there's a bidding war between two buyers, but perhaps one is a duplicate account of the other used to drive up the price?

Dave

[Allen]

(04-28-2020 02:34 PM)mfleming Wrote:  2) List a well known, desirable product above market value (buy it now), then issue a private offer to watchers at or slightly below MV that gets snapped up within 24 hours.

Both of the above tactics seem pretty successful...

So trick question, who determines the market value?

[mfleming]

(04-28-2020 11:05 PM)Allen Wrote:  So trick question, who determines the market value?

Trick question indeed, coming from one who introduced the term is an earlier exposition on the subject If an item trades frequently enough on ebay, ebay itself will note what the item usually sells for. Think of used calculators still in use in schools. Beyond that, it's really the judgement of the individual who has spent years searching for particular items. Each person's judgement will differ, but they'll probably fall within a rough bell curve around a "market value" median.

On the subject of buyer behavior I've noticed many buy it now postings also accept best offers. I've used that a few times to mixed success. I've thought about making a private offer to a seller with a ridiculously high price and no make offer option. Anyone have success with that approach? I'm not sure such an agreed upon sale would show up in a list of past sales. That could affect your judgement of what a fair price is.

BTW, the winner of an auction is always the loser, because the winner paid more than what any other bidder thought an item was worth

[Allen]

Are you familiar with the endowment effect from behavioral economics?

[mfleming]

(04-29-2020 02:31 AM)Allen Wrote:  Are you familiar with the endowment effect from behavioral economics?

That's a pretty interesting article (My, how far we've drifted from the original topic), but I suspect it can be critiqued on two fronts; lack of reproducible experiments, and a narrow, self-selected subject sampling. Although the length of the list of references is impressive, the sources are less so. Most results in the soft "sciences" seem to come from studies of college undergraduates, usually in the U.S., looking to earn a few bucks for dope or alcohol. Check the Critique section for details. I spent time pre- and post- , so forgive my cynicism

Happy memories of times gone by...
~Mark

[jonmoore]

Back on book recommendations, The Financial Times book division put out an excellent tome on financial calculations (and the algorithms involved) in 1998 and the 12c was the calculator most often used to explore the subject areas.

It's deep and thorough and not something for casual readers, but if financial calculations are your bag (o you're sitting exams in this area) it's an excellent tome.

Apparently, the print quality has varied over the years (my copy is fine) but the content is A+, plus, on the subject of inflated asking prices, second hand copies are generally available for under $5.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2294...lculations

[rprosperi]

(04-29-2020 01:34 AM)mfleming Wrote:  On the subject of buyer behavior I've noticed many buy it now postings also accept best offers. I've used that a few times to mixed success. I've thought about making a private offer to a seller with a ridiculously high price and no make offer option. Anyone have success with that approach? I'm not sure such an agreed upon sale would show up in a list of past sales. That could affect your judgement of what a fair price is.

I've often made offers to BIN listings w/o the 'Make an Offer' option available and have had my offer accepted many (20+) times. I've also had probably twice that many rejections and also a few were completely ignored (including several by we-all-know-who).

IIRC, the actual price paid is not shown when you look at the completed item view, that still shows the listed price, so indeed it's misleading for those collecting actual prices to determine a trend or accurate average.

The actual price paid for a BIN listing that is accepted is also no longer shown when looking at completed listings. These show the BIN listing price w/strike-through and the phrase "Best offer accepted" is listed under the price.

So eBay is deliberately hiding many actual prices paid, to project an image of higher prices paid overall, which leads to higher new listings which yield higher fees paid to them. Coincidence?