The death of calculator market?

[grsbanks]

(10-24-2020 09:12 AM)David22 Wrote:  So on HP Prime you can't create a custom menu or customize keyboard as you did on HP 48/50 series?

You can't create a custom menu but you can customize the keyboard (assign user functions to keys).

[John Keith]

(10-24-2020 07:10 AM)Giancarlo Wrote:  Hello,
I agree on that.
There is a great opportunity. It is the first time that different platform adopt the same programming language reducing the the slopes initial phase of learning a new language, use code snippets found everywhere.
At this point why not extending this concept to a development board?
Hp shouldn’t be scared of the effort. In my opinion they shouldn’t develop a board by themselves, they should adopt one.
Nowadays there are consolidated boards without risks of choosing one that will disappear soon.
I think that hp should develop a limited amount of commands and then let the user comunity to proceed.

Arduino and raspberry pie need An extra effort that kid may not be able to cope with. Why we don’t rely to our calculator these first steps toward automation and robotics?

Arduino is more difficult for the inexperienced because it is typically programmed in C which is not exactly a user-friendly language. The Raspberry Pi on the other hand supports Python and Scratch, both of which are prominent in the educational world. The Pi is also a full-fledged computer and can be programmed in just about any language in existence.

A good start for HP would simply be to get the Prime emulator and connectivity kit working on the Raspberry Pi. Integration with Pi's hardware features (GPIO, etc.) if possible, could be supported by a custom App.

[bhtooefr]

(10-24-2020 10:53 AM)David22 Wrote:  I think you searched for normal scientific calculators, no for graphical calculators.

Or it may be HP in US is out of Prime calculators as it is cleaning old G1 Prime and awaiting for G2 Prime... from China :O (HP usually contracts manufacture in China) and with COVID some things are slower.

In Europe I can find HP Prime in HP online store. Here G2 Prime is the only model from time ago. I don't know the reason but HP started G2 Prime deployment earlier on EU than on US.

Obviously Prime has not been discontinued, it is a shortage/transition form G1 to G2 in US, I suppose.

I reached that list by going to the calculator page in the store (which is underneath PC accessories in the US), and then adding out-of-stock calculators, for what it's worth. So, that's all calculators that HP is advertising in the US on their site.

And, G2's been available in the US for quite a while. In fact, after making that post, I went to a brick and mortar store and bought a G2 - partially because of that finding that the Prime wasn't on the US HP site, in case it was the last HP graphing calculator being discontinued.

[vassilisprevelakis]

(06-09-2020 09:05 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:  In a traditional classroom setting, sure, but when all of your students are in their own homes having class via Zoom/WebEx/Google Meet, it's pretty much impossible to police what device they're using. I suspect TI is a bit nervous about what their back-to-school revenues will look like this fall.

Here in Germany, my 12 years old son's school sent me a form for a group buy of CASIO calculators (Classpad II FX-CP400) for the entire class.

And this in the middle of the Covid lockdown.

So given how conservative teachers are, I don't see Texas and Casio losing any sleep.

HP on the other hand is way behind in winning the hearts and minds of the teachers, so it is slowly being sidelined.

I think that in the long term we'll end up with tablets that offer calculator functionality together with all the other fancy stuff. We will then have to find a way to turn off the non-educational stuff so that students can use their tablets at school without distractions.

Why should I pay 150 EUR for a calculator with a tiny screen, when I can get a perfectly good tablet with a 10 inch screen for around 200 EUR. It does not make any sense.

After all even the calculators have "exam mode" to turn off features, why not a tablet? Its just software.

**vp

PS Of course I have my trusted HP-19C on my desk which is a small, does most of what I want to do, and has that cute little printer. I'll be heartbroken when it dies.

[pier4r]

(11-02-2020 12:54 PM)vassilisprevelakis Wrote:  Why should I pay 150 EUR for a calculator with a tiny screen, when I can get a perfectly good tablet with a 10 inch screen for around 200 EUR. It does not make any sense.

I would agree if it wouldn't be for the input interface.

The keyboard of a real calculator is still much more accurate than a flat touchscreen. It is the same reason why we do not type long text with a touchscreen keyboard, although tablet could process extremely long texts.

If handheld could have a sort of "skin" to emulate a keybaord, then one wouldn't think twice about it.
On the other side, rooting (and thus invalidating exam mode) a capable tablet is somewhat easier than rooting a calculator with a relatively unknown OS.

[Luigi Vampa]

HP Calculator vs. Casio Calculator vs. TI Calculator

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore...calculator

"Google Trends dixit"

[compsystems]

The strategy that calculator manufacturers must follow is to develop a complete and full screen UI for a computer (In different OS) of a numerical and / or algebraic computer system that can also be run on a calculator, I think it is better with a touch screen area larger than keyboard.
In addition, with a good IDE and SDK to teach algorithmic logic and enhance mathematical and algebraic, spatial, graphic reasoning, ...

This would motivate students and teachers to buy a physical device.
There's nothing like having dedicated, integrated electronic hardware for math that no mobile device can replace.

[OtakuLab]

(11-14-2020 01:47 PM)compsystems Wrote:  The strategy that calculator manufacturers must follow is to develop a complete and full screen UI for a computer (In different OS) of a numerical and/or algebraic computer system that can also be run on a calculator, I think it is better with a touch screen area larger than keyboard.

I don't think that would sell well, because it contradicts the basic idea of a pocket calculator. What would certainly be a significant improvement is a slight enlargement of the display and its resolution, as well as extended software compatibility with various operating systems.

It would be extremely important that the source code of the calculator's own programming language on the respective target device is translated into the higher programming language (e.g. Python) of the PC by a translation program, so that the program developed on the calculator can also be executed on the target device and vice versa. It should be noted, however, that the generally rudimentary programming language of the calculator can be translated into a higher one without major difficulties, but in the opposite direction must lead to much more complex source codes, which significantly increases the demand for more storage space* and computing power. The translator should also be able to optimize this source code accordingly with regard to the performance of the calculator. It is therefore in the nature of every high-level programming language that the programs written with it represent a more extensive vocabulary than those developed in pocket calculators.

Another important point due to the first one* would be a freely expandable memory with plug-in cards, for example. This would mean that the processing of complex arithmetic tasks would be less restricted, which drastically increases the use value of the calculator due to its independence from other systems, especially in mobile use.

[compsystems]

Python is the language of today, ideal if the hp-prime includes it.
We thought it would also include a full version of the PC screen with libraries for creating educational content, a huge success.

PHP Code:

class BraceAnnotation(Scene):
    def construct(self):
        dot = Dot([-2, -1, 0])
        dot2 = Dot([2, 1, 0])
        line = Line(dot.get_center(), dot2.get_center()).set_color(ORANGE)
        b1 = Brace(line)
        b1text = b1.get_text("Horizontal distance")
        b2 = Brace(line, direction=line.copy().rotate(PI / 2).get_unit_vector())
        b2text = b2.get_tex("x-x_1")
        self.add(line, dot, dot2, b1, b2, b1text, b2text) 


Example Gallery Python math animation
https://docs.manim.community/en/stable/e...a-settings

[Thomas Radtke]

I'd rather not like to see students with tablets in the classroom. Minor problem: "I forgot my calculator." (usually one student) Major problem: "My battery is empty/tablet is broken." (a lot more students if using tablets I fear)

Nice if they all use the same calculator. Ultranice if that calculator could do basic spreadsheet things (for physics curriculum).

This is new (to me) insight after I was a teacher for five months (math and physics).

[Hlib]

The death of calculators, it`s hp-39, 40_GS with five minutes in the standard benchmark at 75MHz. This is also HP-39gii, which even as a flash application loses in all respects to amateur development C.BASIC for CASIO. And as a calculators they are below all criticism. This is also the hp-50g, which operates unpredictably when you perform complex calculations on it in manual mode. This is also HP-prime, which generally does not go beyond the beta product yet. Compared to the complexity of HP calculators - CASIO and TI continue to produce products for those who in most cases do not understand the basics of natural sciences. And they have to spend a lot of time on the Internet to study the features of the new purchased product. As for me, I only admit years-tested graphical calculators, in which the list of bugs is much smaller than the volume of the manual.

[Giuseppe Donnini]

(12-24-2020 10:04 PM)Hlib Wrote:  The death of calculators, it`s hp-39, 40_GS with five minutes in the standard benchmark at 75MHz. This is also HP-39gii, which even as a flash application loses in all respects to amateur development C.BASIC for CASIO. And as a calculators they are below all criticism. This is also the hp-50g, which operates unpredictably when you perform complex calculations on it in manual mode. This is also HP-prime, which generally does not go beyond the beta product yet. Compared to the complexity of HP calculators - CASIO and TI continue to produce products for those who in most cases do not understand the basics of natural sciences. And they have to spend a lot of time on the Internet to study the features of the new purchased product. As for me, I only admit years-tested graphical calculators, in which the list of bugs is much smaller than the volume of the manual.

I couldn't agree more! And thanks for giving me the assurance that I am not alone with my opinion. You have, however, forgotten to mention the HP-49G alias "Frozen Hamster Butt" which, from many points of view, sounded the true death-knell of the calculator as a serious product.

[Peet]

(11-02-2020 12:54 PM)vassilisprevelakis Wrote:  Here in Germany, my 12 years old son's school sent me a form for a group buy of CASIO calculators (Classpad II FX-CP400) for the entire class.
...
Why should I pay 150 EUR for a calculator with a tiny screen, when I can get a perfectly good tablet with a 10 inch screen for around 200 EUR. It does not make any sense.

In Germany, education is a matter of the states, not the country. In North Rhine-Westphalia the need for calculators in school was abandond with a similar reason a few years ago.
I don't think that calculators in school are good for their acceptance, like other mandatory tools students hate them more than they want them.

But I hope that quality calculators will be around for a long time. I think, it would be funny if they become the Rolex of engineers.

[KaLi]

A calculator is a tool -- and for some, like us, it's a beloved toy as well. ;-)

99.99% of people/students/pupils would be perfectly served with the simplest Casio calculator. The don't need graphing... RPN... 3d visualization... CAS... etc.

The problem with all tools is: You have to learn to use it correctly. And -- IMHO more important -- you have to learn when to use it: Sometimes you should do your math with a pencil (because of thought-processes regarding the problem solving), sometimes it would be a good idea to use a slide-rule-calculator (because of visualization of precision) and sometimes Excel beats the best calculator anyways.

But as a tool my opinion is: The specialized single-function-tool always beats the multitool. And a real calculator beats a tablet, simple because of the physical buttons... and buttons are related to ease-of-use and speed. I have so many math apps on my iPad -- I can't count them. But after all, on the tablet I use a very simple calculator app... and do everything else with a real calculator (or if necessary Excel, or Matlab, or Python).

As for Germany (written as a physicist with children): I have learned, that our schooling system (today) doesn't teach the pupils how and when to use a calculator as a useful tool. If no one can handle a tool it will fall out of favor... and I would guess, that calculators will die out. The HP Prime may be the last real-button Calculator... because it's already poisoned with too much zeitgeist-touchiness.

[John Keith]

(01-03-2021 09:17 AM)Peet Wrote:  But I hope that quality calculators will be around for a long time. I think, it would be funny if they become the Rolex of engineers.

They were the Rolex for engineers in the 70's and early 80's. Those days are long gone. High quality scientific calculators will always be a niche market, served by small companies like Swiss Micros, not large multinational conglomerates.

[Hlib]

(10-15-2020 09:27 AM)Thomas Radtke Wrote:  ... Likewise sad was the death of RPL. I'm so happy I have one 48G and one 50G, allthough they see not much use unfortunately.

I had the same grief. My two hp-50g`s are long gone. The third hp-50g lives out its last years in a desk drawer. It seems to me that it will still live no more than 300 hours of active operation. Just for the sake of RPN/RPL, having lost all hope for long-lasting or improved calculators from HP, I allocated a separate android phone for hp-emulators: 42s, 48gx, 50g. Choosing a device specifically for your favorite emulators is a fairly simple task. 18nm CPU tech process, 1GB RAM, IPS (not AMOLED!), proprietary firmware lite and removing all the garbage of the phone by special access. So, now I have a small brick weighing 140 g with a power consumption of no more than 0.5 Watts (i.e. a day of continuous operation with one charging cycle). I`m no longer worried about HP`s plans or the dying of RPN/RPL.

[StephenG1CMZ]

One thing to consider using that approach: It's an additional device that you may need to keep connected to the Internet. And keeping devices connected needs more and more storage.
My Huawei 16GB is currently asking to download a 2.5 GB security update that won't fit in the available storage.
And that Internet connection can be required merely to run the emulator, not just for emulator updates.
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-15...ght=Broken

[Hlib]

(01-04-2021 09:33 PM)StephenG1CMZ Wrote:  One thing to consider using that approach: It's an additional device that you may need to keep connected to the Internet. And keeping devices connected needs more and more storage.
My Huawei 16GB is currently asking to download a 2.5 GB security update that won't fit in the available storage.
And that Internet connection can be required merely to run the emulator, not just for emulator updates.
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-15...ght=Broken

If you remove all unnecessary services from the device and configure it exclusively for certain needs, then the problems you described should disappear. My calcophone was never connected to the Internet, the emulators are cleaned of ads and other redundant features. As for updates for the entire system, they are not needed for calcophone, and I update individual applications only at my own discretion.
The rapid development and improvement of mobile devices to some extent encourages the introduction of calculators to new users. Handling emulators on a modern portable gadget in some cases is more comfortable than carrying a real calculator.