NumWorks open source calculator

[debrouxl]

(11-11-2020 01:14 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Thanks Tom, I would have never guessed there's enough demand here to justify local warehousing. Will do so soon.

At least one of the NumWorks employees lives in the USA, but I don't know how much that's related to warehousing

(11-11-2020 01:14 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  How simple is it to copy apps to the Numworks device, is special s/w required?

The NumWorks calculators are well-behaved USB devices using the standard Device Firmware Upgrade (DFU) class. The OTG pin is not soldered, sadly.
The online, Web browser-based NumWorks workshop is the way to transfer OS-level data between computer and calculator; at least another DFU implementation works fine for transferring OS upgrades.

Among the improvements potentially relevant to you, the third-party Omega firmware restores the exact math engine (removed from Epsilon because of stupid standardized tests in some countries), integrates upstream giac as an external app, and provides a RPN app.

EDIT: FTR, you can compile and test on a computer before you buy the calculator.

[Bill (Smithville NJ)]

I bought my Numworks calculator from Amazon back in June. It's Model N0110.

Before buying, I had spent a little time playing with the On-Line Simulator/emulator. I liked that i could download and run the simulator locally on my computer. I bought it mainly to play around with Python on it.

After receiving the calculator, I was very impressed with it's construction. And had some fun playing around with it. I'm not overly fond of having to use their website to download/upload programs to it. I would much prefer an offline option. I never trust on-line to always be there in the future.

I had hopes that I could save and load programs into the the Simulator. Unfortunately, the Simulator has NO OPTION to load or save programs or even maintain the state of the calculator. Each time the simulator is run, it starts with an empty state. So while I could develop on the simulator there is no way to move that to the actual calculator except to re-enter everything.

In retrospect, I wish I had realized that the simulator, for my purpose, is almost useless. If I had know that, I probably would not have bought the calculator.

Another problem is that while there are quite a few python programs developed by users for the calculator, there is no easy way to search or list those programs. I have spent time using Google to find these users programs, but it would be nice if the website had a programs area so that they could easily be referenced.

Even when I find a sample program, quite often it won't run since the program is using a custom version of the calculator OS.

Another problem is that the Forum is on Reddit. I hate Reddit. In my view, it's not a proper forum that I am used to. Plus embedded ads just drive me crazy.

At present, my Numworks calculator makes a very pretty paper weight. I am holding on to it to see if they ever correct the Simulator to Load/Save programs/states. If they do, then I might start playing around with it again.

73
Bill
WD9EQD
Smithville, NJ

[debrouxl]

Quote:At present, my Numworks calculator makes a very pretty paper weight. I am holding on to it to see if they ever correct the Simulator to Load/Save programs/states. If they do, then I might start playing around with it again.

Surprisingly, quick searches for "state", "save" and "restore" through the issues on the numworks/epsilon and Omega-Numworks/Omega repositories came up empty of items related to saving and restoring simulator state. There are some items related to Flash memory storage, or an app showing some metrics about the storage, though.
I agree that it would be a useful feature, if probably not the most frequently used one, so I'll point the main Omega contributors to your post

From my past dabbling with the Epsilon code base, I believe that one of the main appropriate locations for saving and restoring state should be Ion::Storage, https://github.com/numworks/epsilon/blob.../storage.h & https://github.com/numworks/epsilon/blob...torage.cpp .

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(11-10-2020 07:59 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  Python... pfui!

"Pfui!" is an exclamation word in german which, translated to italian, means "che schifo!" Is that really what you think about Python? ;-) (I myself know nothing about Python and also I am not sure if I want to learn yet another programming language. There are so many other things one can do with his life...)

Regards
Max

[Massimo Gnerucci]

Hi!

(11-11-2020 07:10 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  "Pfui!" is an exclamation word in german which, translated to italian, means "che schifo!" Is that really what you think about Python? ;-)

Well, that was quite tongue-in-cheek, but since the alternative is "yet another 41 emulator" I'd say yes: much better this than a high level programming language on a calculator. I have nothing against Python per se, but on a small gadget I want to be able to program it natively, with its screen and keyboard size constraints, not needing a PC to do it.

(11-11-2020 07:10 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  (I myself know nothing about Python and also I am not sure if I want to learn yet another programming language. There are so many other things one can do with his life...)

And I can only subscribe your sentence, word by word.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hi!

(11-11-2020 07:58 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  And I can only subscribe your sentence, word by word.

What I have been waiting for since decades is Automatic Programming. I want to be able to say: "Siri (*)! Please make a Space Invaders program for me and upload it to the NumWorks calculator". And Siri replies: "Thank you Sir for letting me program your Numworks calculator for you. Enjoy your game Sir!" We have been promised that since so long...

Saluti
Max

(*) Or Alexa if you prefer it her way

[rprosperi]

Bill and debrouxl - Thanks for the information and comments! Gives me, once again, pause before getting one of these... When it came out there was a bunch of flutter, but after each and every person that actually used it, whose background and views I know and understand, panned it, I passed and decided to wait a while.

After that, I totally forgot about it as it never comes up, until the interesting post above. But it seems things have not improved much, other than it has become a new platform which is relatively easy for developers to hack into what they like. Which isn't a bad thing, but not of interest to me; it's all a matter of available time and focus I guess.

Why on earth does the simulator not let you save? Is part of the logic that if it was fully functional and could save state, then lots of people wouldn't buy the real thing as this would provide everything but the portability for free? Which of course is a silly justification as it's very reason to exist (for students) fundamentally requires portability.

Is the simulator constantly updated to maintain parity with released versions?

If I were really cynical, I'd observe that requiring an online tool to install updates simply tells us about the limits of their developers and support staff. But I'm not always really cynical... just sometimes. But I admit maybe there is some non-obvious reason that makes sense.

And Reddit is the only support forum? Really? I get that students find that relevant and appropriate, but I don't, for plenty of obvious reasons, and won't waste time there.

The f/w update activity looks good; fairly active and appears to be pretty transparent. But why the odd jump in revisions? 13.1 -> 13.2 -> 14.4 ?

Can someone provide a brutally brief explanation of what Omega and Epsilon are? Neither term is mentioned in the manual, so I presume these are 3rd party hacks/forks of some kind? If so, are they intended by their developers to be used by students for academics and supported by Numworks, or are they simply community hacks for personal use?

Would like to find reasons to get this, but it doesn't look good

[toml_12953]

(11-12-2020 02:37 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Can someone provide a brutally brief explanation of what Omega and Epsilon are? Neither term is mentioned in the manual, so I presume these are 3rd party hacks/forks of some kind? If so, are they intended by their developers to be used by students for academics and supported by Numworks, or are they simply community hacks for personal use?

Would like to find reasons to get this, but it doesn't look good

Epsilon is the name of the stock software right from Numworks company. Omega is an OS that's an enhancement to Epsilon. It includes the ability to add apps and restores the CAS that was removed from Epsilon to allow it to be used in schools. It also has an RPN app which Epsilon doesn't have.

[grsbanks]

(11-11-2020 07:58 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  I have nothing against Python per se, but on a small gadget I want to be able to program it natively, with its screen and keyboard size constraints, not needing a PC to do it.

+1

[BruceH]

(11-12-2020 02:37 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  Bill and debrouxl - Thanks for the information and comments! Gives me, once again, pause before getting one of these... When it came out there was a bunch of flutter, but after each and every person that actually used it, whose background and views I know and understand, panned it, I passed and decided to wait a while.

I have one. It's nice enough but not RPL. So it's a bit like owning a TI or a Casio - nothing intrinsically wrong with it but you're an HP person, not a TI person or a Numworks person.

Quote:After that, I totally forgot about it as it never comes up, until the interesting post above. But it seems things have not improved much, other than it has become a new platform which is relatively easy for developers to hack into what they like. Which isn't a bad thing, but not of interest to me; it's all a matter of available time and focus I guess.

One of these days I'll port a subset of RPL to it. Don't hold your breath though!

Quote:Why on earth does the simulator not let you save? Is part of the logic that if it was fully functional and could save state, then lots of people wouldn't buy the real thing as this would provide everything but the portability for free? Which of course is a silly justification as it's very reason to exist (for students) fundamentally requires portability.

Is the simulator constantly updated to maintain parity with released versions?

If I were really cynical, I'd observe that requiring an online tool to install updates simply tells us about the limits of their developers and support staff. But I'm not always really cynical... just sometimes. But I admit maybe there is some non-obvious reason that makes sense.

On their website they make the point that they've written the download code just once and it runs (in Chrome or a Chromium browser like Brave) regardless of whether you are a Windows or Mac or Linux user. Actually the last update was extremely quick and simple for me - much less faff than updating a Prime. So much so I think HP should do the same.

Quote:And Reddit is the only support forum? Really? I get that students find that relevant and appropriate, but I don't, for plenty of obvious reasons, and won't waste time there.

Well there's perfectly good forum software you can crib from here if you want to host your own and aim attract a more refined class of commentard. :-)

Quote:The f/w update activity looks good; fairly active and appears to be pretty transparent. But why the odd jump in revisions? 13.1 -> 13.2 -> 14.4 ?

Can someone provide a brutally brief explanation of what Omega and Epsilon are? Neither term is mentioned in the manual, so I presume these are 3rd party hacks/forks of some kind? If so, are they intended by their developers to be used by students for academics and supported by Numworks, or are they simply community hacks for personal use?

Would like to find reasons to get this, but it doesn't look good

[Peet]

(11-11-2020 08:59 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  What I have been waiting for since decades is Automatic Programming. I want to be able to say: "Siri (*)! Please make a Space Invaders program for me and upload it to the NumWorks calculator". And Siri replies: "Thank you Sir for letting me program your Numworks calculator for you. Enjoy your game Sir!" We have been promised that since so long...

We're getting closer to this. GameGAN recreated PAC-MAN.

[Peet]

(11-14-2020 12:17 AM)BruceH Wrote:  I have one. It's nice enough but not RPL. So it's a bit like owning a TI or a Casio - nothing intrinsically wrong with it but you're an HP person, not a TI person or a Numworks person.

Omega-RPN looks interesting.

[EmmanuelC]

My daughter has a NumWorks because it's the choice of her school. Interesting to compare it to the casio 35 chosen by the school of my son. The NumWorks is really impressive : clear menus, Nice box and kb,, reasonable memory, a lot of functions... And it's à good media for who is not tech- or math- oriented. Numerous students in Fact...

Nevertheless I prefer my HPs (50g, 32sII,...). No doubt ! . And when using Python or Julia, the Nice place is my computer.

[Steve Simpkin]

(11-14-2020 09:33 AM)Peet Wrote:  

(11-14-2020 12:17 AM)BruceH Wrote:  I have one. It's nice enough but not RPL. So it's a bit like owning a TI or a Casio - nothing intrinsically wrong with it but you're an HP person, not a TI person or a Numworks person.

Omega-RPN looks interesting.

You can try it out on the Omega Numworks online simulation.
https://getomega.dev/simulator

[rprosperi]

(11-14-2020 09:31 PM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  

(11-14-2020 09:33 AM)Peet Wrote:  Omega-RPN looks interesting.

You can try it out on the Omega Numworks online simulation.
https://getomega.dev/simulator

Thanks Steve, very helpful to get a feel for using this.

[StephenG1CMZ]

Android: Can anyone suggest how to exit the calculator on Android. Tapping or holding the Numworks power switch does nothing (on the Numworks App).
Powering off the Android mobile works, but that is not convenient.

[DA74254]

(02-15-2021 10:28 PM)StephenG1CMZ Wrote:  Android: Can anyone suggest how to exit the calculator on Android. Tapping or holding the Numworks power switch does nothing (on the Numworks App).
Powering off the Android mobile works, but that is not convenient.

??
I have both the Numworks and the Omega on my Cat s61 (Androit v9). I just hit middle button and it goes away. If you want to "force close" it, you hit right button (vanilla Android, that's the square symbol), find the app you want to close and swipe up.

[Stevetuc]

(11-10-2020 05:55 PM)Oulan Wrote:  Some fun with numworks N110 and Omega firmware :

Picture
Source code

Did anyone get this working? I tried uploading the app.elf via this Web page and selecting Custom File:
https://external.getomega.dev/
However this was not successful (the upload completed but app did not show up on calc)- I suspect the roms and icon file also need to be uploaded, but maybe the elf is not in required format.
I've seen tar archives mentioned in the help for the Web installer but a script is included to handle this:
https://github.com/Omega-Numworks/Omega-External

Quote:To build a usable tar archive, relocation needs to be done to account the real adresses in flash of the binaries. There is a script called "archive" in this repository, which calls the linker on partially linked elf, to build final correctly relocated elf files (then added to the tar archive).The file in the tar must be marked as executable to be executable.

[cdmackay]

Does anyone have the Omega Android app still working?

Mine hasn't worked for a while; just immediately exits on start. Android 11 on Samsung Note 20U.

I've tried clearing data & cache, and even removing/reinstalling. It did work once, but hasn't for some time.

Numworks app is fine, however.

[Stevetuc]

(11-15-2021 03:09 PM)cdmackay Wrote:  Does anyone have the Omega Android app still working?

Mine hasn't worked for a while; just immediately exits on start. Android 11 on Samsung Note 20U.

I've tried clearing data & cache, and even removing/reinstalling. It did work once, but hasn't for some time.

Numworks app is fine, however.

Mine is still working on Samsung S8 android 11 oneUI 3.1

Omega>settings>about:
Epsilon 14.4.1
Omega 1.20.3
uPython 1.12.0