Dark Matter!!

[Namir]

I may have an idea that can answer the Dark Matter issue in cosmology. My idea is that the basic sub-atomic particles have an enumerated (i.e. finite) property, call it Helkitron, that connects them to other particles. Particles with the same Helkitron values see each other and interact with each other, and vice versa. Since the mass of dark matter makes up five times the mass of the visible universe, I estimate that the Helkitron property has 6 (1+5) states. This means that there are 5 more parallel universes that exists right among us!!! We cannot see them or interact with them (except for gravity) because of the Helkitron property.

Namir

[walter b]

Please turn to the APS in that matter (pun intended) - although I'm a physicist I don't think I'm in any way competent assessing your idea.

d:-?

[Manolo Sobrino]

ahem... Namir.... no...

Let me recommend you an easy and pleasant to read introductory textbook on elementary particles:

Introduction to Elementary Particles -
David Griffiths

There you can find that yes, the interaction via coupling to discrete charges is how you do these things, there are deep reasons for that, and no, states are not something you fill with mass or anything like that (it would be even better to get to know some quantum mechanics.)

For the moment, just don't worry about dark matter and please forget everything you've ever heard, thought, or think you know about parallel universes. Popular science sometimes causes harm... a lot of it.

[Namir]

I am reading the book titled The Universe: Leading Scientists Explore the Origin, Mysteries, and Future of the Cosmos. It contains chapters written by different cosmologists and present powerful ideas about various aspects of cosmology. The book made me think about Dark Matter, which seems to be a challenge. I am a seeker and an intellectual who thinks outside the box. I love new ideas.

Namir

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-01-2014 12:54 AM)Namir Wrote:  I am a seeker and an intellectual who thinks outside the box.

Physicists also do, and sometimes they even propagate ideas without scientific theory, just like you did. Everything else easily leads back to scholasticism.

All is fine as long as we're aware those ideas are just that, with no connection to 'real life' for the time being. Ignoring that, you easily find yourself in esoterism, likewise silly as scholasticism ;-).

[jebem]

(07-31-2014 09:45 PM)Namir Wrote:  I may have an idea that can answer the Dark Matter issue in cosmology. My idea is that the basic sub-atomic particles have an enumerated (i.e. finite) property, call it Helkitron, that connects them to other particles. Particles with the same Helkitron values see each other and interact with each other, and vice versa. Since the mass of dark matter makes up five times the mass of the visible universe, I estimate that the Helkitron property has 6 (1+5) states. This means that there are 5 more parallel universes that exists right among us!!! We cannot see them or interact with them (except for gravity) because of the Helkitron property.

Namir

Well, I'm in the dark on this matter.

However I have read my bunch of scientific books written by "accepted" scientists in my time on this subject, and it is really a fascinating area, where the border between "proper" accepted science and science fiction is really thin.

I guess as long as a mathematic model is consistent to support your idea, it is a valid theory as any other until it can be proven experimentally.

As a side note, I still have hundreds of science fiction pocket books written by well stablished scientists under pseudonym, as a way to publish wild ideas that could not be shared in any other way in the universities.

I still remember the anedoctic story about the radio frequency transformers that, according to the official theories, could not be reduced below a specific size, meaning that the world would never enjoy portable and car radios...

[Tugdual]

(08-01-2014 07:32 AM)jebem Wrote:  I still remember the anedoctic story about the radio frequency transformers that, according to the official theories, could not be reduced below a specific size, meaning that the world would never enjoy portable and car radios...

When you turn on the radio, you hear that we still have wars, starvation, diseases, global warming, greedy finance (so basically we're doomed). Considering this, it is very obvious that humankind didn't progress, we're still basic monkeys, so how could we produce mobile phones and other stuff? There is obviously missing grey matter!!

To me the only explanation is alien theory; fruit machines (you know those hyped phones and pads as cool as useless) come from area 51 and were sent by aliens to spread the fruit religion and now we have fruit churches where you get applauded when you symbolically donate money (a pretty fair amount to show your faith) with the plastic card and get an object of worship in return.

Need to go, time for my medication!

[walter b]

(08-01-2014 11:17 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  ... we still have wars, starvation, diseases, global warming, greedy finance (so basically we're doomed). Considering this, it is very obvious that humankind didn't progress, we're still basic monkeys, so how could we produce mobile phones and other stuff? There is obviously missing grey matter!!

Well said!

[Joe Horn]

<rant> Everybody tells me that The Scientific Method insists on empirical verification before it accepts any claims. Oh yeah? Then why are the existence of dark matter and dark energy taken seriously even though they have never been -- and never can be -- measured? I'm told, "Oh, it's ok, because their existence is deduced from proper scientific observations of OTHER things." Bad answer! That's EXACTLY the same way that the existence of the "luminiferous ether" was deduced, until the fact that it does NOT exist was proven in 1887 by the famous Michelson-Morley experiment. There are countless web pages that claim to explain why the existence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy is NOT AT ALL like the existence of the Luminiferous Ether, but they all sound fishy to me. I hold the Scientific Method in too high regard to violate Occam's Razor this way. I would rather assume that our models of physical reality are flawed, and in need of revision. After all, that is the proper way to make scientific advances, not by explaining away things with pure speculations. Dark matter? Dark energy? Unicorns and Pixie Dust! I hope a new Michelson and Morley come forward and discredit this highly unscientific fantasy. Bottom line: the scientific method never allows untestable hypotheses, but the existence of dark matter and dark energy is by definition untestable, and therefore must be rejected as a hypothesis, Q.E.D.</rant>

Disclaimer: I'm as happy to change my opinions as real science is happy to change its theories, for the same reason, and by the same process. Saying, "Go away and read a book about quantum physics, or just stop thinking about this stuff entirely," is not helpful in this regard.

[Thomas Radtke]

(08-01-2014 03:42 PM)Joe Horn Wrote:  Then why are the existence of dark matter [...] taken seriously even though they have never been -- and never can be -- measured?

As I wrote earlier, ideas like e.g. string theory are not excluded from a scientific discussion, allthough there's no scientific theory behind it.

(08-01-2014 03:42 PM)Joe Horn Wrote:  I would rather assume that our models of physical reality are flawed, and in need of revision.

If you think that's the way to go - please go on.

[walter b]

As far as I understand it, "dark matter" and "dark energy" are just model pictures to explain observations for which nobody found a simpler explanation yet. Personally, I can follow the idea of "dark matter" easier while "dark energy" looks queer to me but I don't know anything simpler being consistent with observation. If you know better, go ahead.

[Manolo Sobrino]

(08-01-2014 03:42 PM)Joe Horn Wrote:  Disclaimer: I'm as happy to change my opinions as real science is happy to change its theories, for the same reason, and by the same process. Saying, "Go away and read a book about quantum physics, or just stop thinking about this stuff entirely," is not helpful in this regard.

Being a trained physicist myself I have a hard time believing in those things I can't calculate, I'd say measure too, but experiments for these things are very complex and you need huge teams. I trust some people and my intuition on those, but I really hold my judgement until I know how to do it... And yes there are a few unsatisfactory things out there.

Joe, I honestly think that recommending a book or telling people not to worry about certain things is the best you can do. This stuff is highly technical and relies on precise details. Nor (just) language nor everyday experience can be used to teach these ideas properly. You'd be simply telling lies. There's a reason why there are not PopSci books on functional analysis, you can't do it in earnest, but then people are not interested in Banach spaces...

And yes, physicists exchange ideas with seemingly everyday language, but then they're using quite a lot of jargon that takes some time and effort to really understand, as it actually is a shortcut for mathematical relations among definite objects. If you can't do the Math or know where you can find it you'll get lost pretty soon. As it sounds familiar you may feel that you're getting somewhere, but you aren't.

Let me quote Einstein: “Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.”

And a sardonic joke/jab from Pauli in a letter to Gamow when he heard about Heisenberg's World equation:



("This is to show the world that I can paint like Titian. Only technical details are missing.")

[Jim Horn]

Dark matter and dark energy can't be measured but only deduced by measuring other things? Would that be like most observations in physics? I can't see magnetic fields but only deduce them by their effect on current flow through a coil (if varying), moving a compass needle, etc. Similarly, we know *something* is bending the light of distant galaxies and such. Refraction and other Newtonian explanations fail. The only successful-so-far known cause is gravity. But the gravity caused by the observed mass of things is insufficient. So either there's lots of missing mass from our observations -or- we don't measure the mass properly from known observations of electromagnetic spectra -or- there's mass that isn't involved with those spectra. The latter case has gotten the descriptive name of dark matter (and, correspondingly, dark energy).

Can we therefore never measure those? We couldn't measure voltage, current or magnetic fields centuries ago but we've learned a lot since then. Perhaps in the future what we now call dark matter or energy will be known to be akin to neutrinos, (entirely hypothetical) tachyons, or the heretofore unmeasured mass of souls. I don't know what the answer will be but I can't rule out the hypothesis, which is what it is.

Great comment, though, Joe! Lots of food for thought (nom, nom, nom)...

[Namir]

Physicists talk about sub-atomic particles that come out of nothing exists for a very infinitesimal time and decay (i.e. disappear). Using the simultaneous universe model, these particles may be coming from the other universes and not from nothing. They may have the ability to experience variable Helkitron states.

Namir

[Joe Horn]

(08-01-2014 09:25 PM)Namir Wrote:  Physicists talk about sub-atomic particles that come out of nothing exists for a very infinitesimal time and decay (i.e. disappear).

If you were to pass a plane through a torus (see animation below) the intersection looks just like what they say virtual particles do, winking into existence, flying apart, flying back together, and winking out of existence again... albeit stepped down one dimension. This can't be just a coincidence, but I've never seen virtual particles described this way. Sure looks like dimensional cross-sectioning to me.

[jebem]

(08-01-2014 11:17 AM)Tugdual Wrote:  

(08-01-2014 07:32 AM)jebem Wrote:  I still remember the anedoctic story about the radio frequency transformers that, according to the official theories, could not be reduced below a specific size, meaning that the world would never enjoy portable and car radios...

When you turn on the radio, you hear that we still have wars, starvation, diseases, global warming, greedy finance (so basically we're doomed). Considering this, it is very obvious that humankind didn't progress, we're still basic monkeys, so how could we produce mobile phones and other stuff? There is obviously missing grey matter!!

To me the only explanation is alien theory; fruit machines (you know those hyped phones and pads as cool as useless) come from area 51 and were sent by aliens to spread the fruit religion and now we have fruit churches where you get applauded when you symbolically donate money (a pretty fair amount to show your faith) with the plastic card and get an object of worship in return).

By telling me the real true you are fooling me, my friend .
Time for me to go check my fruit machine now.

[Namir]

Joe,

So you basically agree with mu humble-pie hypothesis?

BTW .. I am using the term Helkitron ... this comes from my boot camp military service days in 1976. The second staff sergeant wanted to ask soldiers who studied electrical/electronics engineering to step out of the ranks for a special meeting He said "If you know helkitron ... ". The term stuck in my skull as perhaps the name of something important to come!

:-)

Namir

[John Smitherman]

(07-31-2014 09:45 PM)Namir Wrote:  I may have an idea that can answer the Dark Matter issue in cosmology.

Namir

You may try posting your idea in the "Astronomy & Cosmology" section at http://www.physicsforums.com to get additional feedback and discussion.


Regards,

John

[Namir]

Thanks John! I signed up with the forum and posted my message there too. Let's hope I don't get malicious snail mail in response :-)

Namir

[Namir]

John,

The forum you suggests totally sucks!!! They refuse to allow postings of personal theories. I wrote the back and told them to take me off their list of forum members!!

Namir