NEW: HP 15C Collectors Edition

[OlidaBel]

I just placed an order on Eduwinkel.nl ,
in dutch ;-) dutch is a national language here in Belgium (among NL, FR and ...german DE ! Three languages for such a small country !).

[Dr_Who2]

The eduwinkel.nl site states on the product page -> extra information:

"Invoermethode: Algebraïsch, RPN"

I found no key or shifted key for algebraic mode on the picture of the calculator.
I downloaded the Datasheet and revised Manual by HP from there.
Both say RPN entry method, as expected.

I guess algebraic mode will be preserved for the "15C Platinum", if that ever happens.

[johanw]

(05-10-2023 10:34 AM)Dr_Who2 Wrote:  The eduwinkel.nl site states on the product page -> extra information:

"Invoermethode: Algebraïsch, RPN"

I found no key or shifted key for algebraic mode on the picture of the calculator.
I downloaded the Datasheet and revised Manual by HP from there.
Both say RPN entry method, as expected.

I guess algebraic mode will be preserved for the "15C Platinum", if that ever happens.

That is most probably an error of the website maintainer.

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Hello!

(05-10-2023 07:07 AM)Divasson Wrote:  Here is a short video of what comes in the box. Sorry for the poor production!

Very nice video (unfortunately, because this means that I will soon spend a lot of money for useless things again ;-) ) - and I really like the card that's packed with the calculator inviting the buyer to this forum!

Regards
Max

NB: One question - when ordering the optional leather case, will the original synthetic leather case also be in the box? (I know, I ask questions like a nerd who collects Star Trek trading cards...)

[Gene]

Between the card in the box informing purchasers of this forum and inviting them to participate ... and the write-up in the front of the HP 15c CE manual describing existing user communities and online forums, the hope is that we will soon see people here and elsewhere who had no idea this was even here !

Wlodek and I enjoyed the fact that for the introduction to the manual (The Story of HP Calculators), we were given essentially complete independence. The direction given was that if it was of interest to us and we thought it would be of interest to a purchaser of the new machine... to put it in there!

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

(05-10-2023 09:05 AM)OlidaBel Wrote:  I just placed an order on Eduwinkel.nl ,
in dutch ;-) dutch is a national language here in Belgium (among NL, FR and ...german DE ! Three languages for such a small country !).

At first I tried Edwinkel.nl, but I didn’t find an English version.
Incidentally, my younger brother was in Antwerp on Sunday and told me he would be in Amsterdam the next day, but since he’s vacationing with his wife, I wouldn’t bother him with any request. Also, the calculators aren’t available in the physical stores yet.
He sent me some pictures of “Paleis op de Meir”, one of them shows a pannel sign (Antwerpen anno 1750) with texts in four languages, English plus the ones you have mentioned. There’s a typo in the last line of the English text (… to make way fort his palace instead of … for this palace). BTW, my English teacher for one and a half year in the late 70’s was from Belgium. It looks like a very nice country!

[Divasson]

(05-10-2023 04:36 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  Hello!

(05-10-2023 07:07 AM)Divasson Wrote:  Here is a short video of what comes in the box. Sorry for the poor production!

Very nice video (unfortunately, because this means that I will soon spend a lot of money for useless things again ;-) ) - and I really like the card that's packed with the calculator inviting the buyer to this forum!

Regards
Max

NB: One question - when ordering the optional leather case, will the original synthetic leather case also be in the box? (I know, I ask questions like a nerd who collects Star Trek trading cards...)

The leather case comes in addition to the standard PU case

[johanw]

(05-10-2023 05:00 PM)Gene Wrote:  Between the card in the box informing purchasers of this forum and inviting them to participate ... and the write-up in the front of the HP 15c CE manual describing existing user communities and online forums, the hope is that we will soon see people here and elsewhere who had no idea this was even here !

I wonder then how those people did know the 15C CE was available for sale. If they got it from the internet they must have also met links to this forum I think.

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

(05-10-2023 06:22 PM)Divasson Wrote:  

(05-10-2023 04:36 PM)Maximilian Hohmann Wrote:  NB: One question - when ordering the optional leather case, will the original synthetic leather case also be in the box? (I know, I ask questions like a nerd who collects Star Trek trading cards...)

The leather case comes in addition to the standard PU case

A good question and a good answer which should be obvious, but somehow I imagined I would receive only one if I selected the true leather option. I wanted the one with he HP logo on it even though the coating of the original case that came with my LE disintegrated spontaneously after a few years.

[jklsadf]

(05-10-2023 08:34 AM)brouhaha Wrote:  

(05-10-2023 07:45 AM)jklsadf Wrote:  Fixing bugs in these calculators would require a new mask set (which is probably why it hasn't been done...it doesn't make economic sense for HP/whoever owns the rights now)

Fifteen years ago, the cost of a custom mask for the Sunplus 6502-derived microcontrollers was under $1000. It might be $2000 now. It doesn't cost much because:
* it's a very old process, not bleeding edge
* it's only a single metal layer, not an all-layers change
* China

I wasn't aware mask sets were so cheap.

(05-10-2023 08:34 AM)brouhaha Wrote:  

Quote:I believe HP does not have the source code for the new 17bii+, 33s, or 35s developed by Kinpo.
[...]
I can't remember if there was any word from HP if the code for these calculators was actually done in C or assembly?

I was specifically told that the 33s and 35s code is written in C. I also remember an HP engineer complaining with regard to the 33s about how inefficient the C code is on a 6502 (which I already knew), and a few specific examples from the 33s, so I'm not convinced that Kinpo wrote those, though Kinpo did write the 12C Platinum v1 code. Kinpo writing code for an HP calculator also doesn't necessarily imply that HP doesn't have the source code. HP probably has the 12C Platinum v2 source code, because they ported it to ARM, though they didn't release it.

It's my understanding that all the 6502-based HP models are written in C, whether by Kinpo or HP, and really, why would any company do it any other way? These things are written under tight deadlines by engineers who'd probably rather be doing something else, not by greybeard 6502 assembly enthusiasts. It's not like racing the beam in an Atari VCS, or the Apple II RWTS floppy routines, where hand-crafted assembly was the only possible way to make things work at all.

The source code HP _doesn't_ have is that of most of the pre-Saturn models. They recovered a copy of the 12C code, and the code for the HP-41C and some of its peripherals still exists because it was released to user groups, but most everything else pre-Saturn is long gone. Most of it didn't survive the calculator division moving to Singapore (vs. previously only manufacturing there), and anything that might have survived that move didn't survivr the four subsequent moves.

See here, large parts were done in 6502 assembly, and not by anyone from HP. I personally would probably use C also even on a 6502, but apparently Kinpo decided to use 6502 assembler for the 35s (they probably already had existing code and were familiar with the platform for other projects), and nobody at HP at the time wanted to touch it. I think Kinpo does really cost-optimize things (probably for other calculators with much lower profit margins), and I suppose assembly is faster also. Most of the current calculators use COB packaging for instance (an exception was the 15C LE which had a packaged microcontroller, although the equivalent 12C+ at the time was COB packaging and still is with the newer non-end-of-life arm processor).

I think Cyrille (maybe others?) did re-implement a lot of the code from the older calculators in C though (used on the 10bii+, 12c+, 20b, and 30b) so they do have C code, including for scientific functions. A bigger issue though is last I heard neither Cyrille or Tim really work on calculators at HP anymore unfortunately.

[Thomas Radtke]

If badly wanted, Kinpo could be contracted once again to get their bugs out. But obviously it's not worth it, even for the last programmable HP calculator certified for those tests. Otherwise they wouldn't have ceased production.

So, it would be another 'great gift' (a.k.a. not for actual use) anyway.

[Steve Simpkin]

(05-11-2023 09:16 AM)jklsadf Wrote:  ...
I think Cyrille (maybe others?) did re-implement a lot of the code from the older calculators in C though (used on the 10bii+, 12c+, 20b, and 30b) so they do have C code, including for scientific functions. A bigger issue though is last I heard neither Cyrille or Tim really work on calculators at HP anymore unfortunately.

Maybe not on their day jobs, but perhaps on the side?

From KlaasKuperus, Product Manager HP for MORAVIA Consulting, the EMEA & AP Licensee for HP Calculators.
"We have our dedicated developers on Prime and Cyrille/Tim are still involved from a side-line. "
https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-18...#pid157555

[Hiwi]

(05-09-2023 06:42 AM)Harald Wrote:  And here someone is short selling the 15C CE
ebay

I know this seller, he is a kind of moneymaker, buys whole collections from ebay.kleinanzeigen etc . and sells the parts with a 'small' price increase, haha on ebay. He sells hardware he could not deliver like the CL Update from monty. He then sends a mail that the item is currently not available. Regarding the 15C CE he states delivery will be in July. The price from 171 is not a real price snapper. He is in my opinion not very serious.
Ralf

[rprosperi]

(05-11-2023 03:23 PM)Hiwi Wrote:  I know this seller, he is a kind of moneymaker, buys whole collections from ebay.kleinanzeigen etc . and sells the parts with a 'small' price increase, haha on ebay. He sells hardware he could not deliver like the CL Update from monty. He then sends a mail that the item is currently not available. Regarding the 15C CE he states delivery will be in July. The price from 171 is not a real price snapper. He is in my opinion not very serious.
Ralf

If you are referring to TheCalculatorStore.com, I can't say what may or may no have happened to you, but I can say this is a legitimate and valuable supplier for the HP community. They sell many heretofore extremely difficult to find repair parts and even published a book on HP-41 repairs. As for pricing, the market decides if it is too high or not.

I have made multiple purchases from TCS and all have been reasonable and fair, for both machines and parts not available elsewhere. I can comfortably recommend TCS for MoHPC members, and expect this to continue into the future.

The timeframe (July) they report for availability of the 15c CE simply repeats comments made by Moravia, so it seems likely to be correct, and sharing photos and a video of an early production unit suggests cooperation with Moravia (who of course enjoys the additional promotion). I don't have one yet, do you?

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(05-12-2023 12:39 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(05-11-2023 03:23 PM)Hiwi Wrote:  I know this seller, he is a kind of moneymaker, buys whole collections from ebay.kleinanzeigen etc . and sells the parts with a 'small' price increase, haha on ebay. He sells hardware he could not deliver like the CL Update from monty. He then sends a mail that the item is currently not available. Regarding the 15C CE he states delivery will be in July. The price from 171 is not a real price snapper. He is in my opinion not very serious.
Ralf

If you are referring to TheCalculatorStore.com, I can't say what may or may no have happened to you, but I can say this is a legitimate and valuable supplier for the HP community. They sell many heretofore extremely difficult to find repair parts and even published a book on HP-41 repairs. As for pricing, the market decides if it is too high or not.

I have made multiple purchases from TCS and all have been reasonable and fair, for both machines and parts not available elsewhere. I can comfortably recommend TCS for MoHPC members, and expect this to continue into the future.

The timeframe (July) they report for availability of the 15c CE simply repeats comments made by Moravia, so it seems likely to be correct, and sharing photos and a video of an early production unit suggests cooperation with Moravia (who of course enjoys the additional promotion). I don't have one yet, do you?

I think Hiwi was referring to the eBay seller Gunterhartmann, mentioned by Harald.

[jonmoore]

(05-12-2023 12:39 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(05-11-2023 03:23 PM)Hiwi Wrote:  I know this seller, he is a kind of moneymaker, buys whole collections from ebay.kleinanzeigen etc . and sells the parts with a 'small' price increase, haha on ebay. He sells hardware he could not deliver like the CL Update from monty. He then sends a mail that the item is currently not available. Regarding the 15C CE he states delivery will be in July. The price from 171 is not a real price snapper. He is in my opinion not very serious.
Ralf

If you are referring to TheCalculatorStore.com, I can't say what may or may no have happened to you, but I can say this is a legitimate and valuable supplier for the HP community. They sell many heretofore extremely difficult to find repair parts and even published a book on HP-41 repairs. As for pricing, the market decides if it is too high or not.

I have made multiple purchases from TCS and all have been reasonable and fair, for both machines and parts not available elsewhere. I can comfortably recommend TCS for MoHPC members, and expect this to continue into the future.

The timeframe (July) they report for availability of the 15c CE simply repeats comments made by Moravia, so it seems likely to be correct, and sharing photos and a video of an early production unit suggests cooperation with Moravia (who of course enjoys the additional promotion). I don't have one yet, do you?

I second your view that TheCalculatorStore is a jewel in the vintage HP ecoosystem crown. But @hiwi was referring to this seller: https://www.ebay.de/usr/gunterhartmann

He currently has a 15c CE listed for €171 - attempting to sucker sell to ebay buyers who are less informed than the average HP Forum member. And on this basis, I'd agree that it's a jerk move that sours Moravias efforts. He's basically applying ticket-tout tactics to the vintage calculator market. That's not good-old capitalist free market economics, it's a naked opportunist attempting to lure in suckers and he deserves to be called out.

[rprosperi]

(05-12-2023 12:54 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  I think Hiwi was referring to the eBay seller Gunterhartmann, mentioned by Harald.

If that's the case, sorry for misinterpreting Hiwi's message; the references to selling the CL board and quoting July delivery led me to a possibly incorrect conclusion. I know nothing at all of that eBay seller, and apologize if the comments were directed at the wrong place, but stand by my comments regarding TCS.

[Siegfried]

(05-10-2023 06:22 PM)Divasson Wrote:  The leather case comes in addition to the standard PU case

As I can resist everything but temptation i had to order one, too. I ordered from Eduwinkel.nl and was happy about the very reasonable shipping for Europe.

Was that leather case on eduwinkel or another store as I did not find it there.

[brouhaha]

(05-11-2023 09:16 AM)jklsadf Wrote:  I wasn't aware mask sets were so cheap.

For a recent CMOS process, a mask set costs millions of dollars, but that also consists of more than 75 masks. For old stuff it was under a dozen masks, and usually masked ROM only needs a single custom mask, rather than an all-layers mask set.

Quote:See here, large parts were done in 6502 assembly

Thanks for pointing that out. I guess the 33s stories I'd heard were only about the C portions, as no mention had been made of assembly. But that was just a personal conversation years ago, and it's also possible that my memory of it isn't that reliable.

The description in that thread does sound essentially unmaintainable.

Of course, there are also pure-C code bases that are essentially unmaintainable. It's a lot more about design and style, or lack of those, than about language. It's possible to write highly-maintainable assembly, but there's rarely any good reason to do that now.

It wouldn't be entirely trivial to reimplement the 35s software from scratch, but it wouldn't be too huge a project either. However, it's not clear that any commercial entity is willing to invest even a modest amount of software development in such a thing now.

[Didier Lachieze]

(05-12-2023 05:58 PM)brouhaha Wrote:  It wouldn't be entirely trivial to reimplement the 35s software from scratch, but it wouldn't be too huge a project either. However, it's not clear that any commercial entity is willing to invest even a modest amount of software development in such a thing now.

SwissMicros is doing it for the 32sii. When the DM32 will be released we’ll see how far they are going beyond the legacy 32sii features.