FORTH & HP: where to start?
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05-17-2023, 12:12 PM
Post: #21
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-17-2023 11:10 AM)floppy Wrote: b) EXPECT96 is a native word in the 71B FORTH dictionary. It may not be listed in the index page at the end, which is also true for a few other words as well. --Bob Prosperi |
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05-17-2023, 12:16 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2023 12:36 PM by floppy.)
Post: #22
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-17-2023 11:37 AM)ThomasF Wrote:ok. I got it.(05-17-2023 11:10 AM)floppy Wrote: Can you submit this EXPECT96 word?EXPECT96 is a built-in word in the Forth-module (both Assembler and Translator module). Has somebody the word of expect96 in another forth? It seems HP71B specific. HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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05-17-2023, 02:27 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2023 02:29 PM by KeithB.)
Post: #23
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
"ACCEPT" seems to be the standard Forth word:
https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/10-...operators/ ETA: The changed it to set the expected characters to the line length of the HP71. |
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05-17-2023, 08:43 PM
Post: #24
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-17-2023 08:15 PM)floppy Wrote: However, I am struggling with understanding how following line could work in an HP71B16 is a hex value (22 decimal) and the string length is 22 characters (decimal) so it fit and works, I just tried it. Look at the beginning of the listing, the system is set to hexadecimal: BASE @ HEX Code: HEX 16 STRING PH$ " FFFFF: F F F (F) F F F" PH$ S! |
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05-17-2023, 10:23 PM
Post: #25
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-17-2023 11:22 AM)ThomasF Wrote: Don't have the module anymore, but it does also contain Forth. This highlighted section is not correct. Though outwardly quite similar, the internals of these two products are very different and most words are at different addresses, which is probably a big issue for a development tool. Bill Wickes created the 41Trans product himself, derived from the earlier FORTH/Assm product after the dev group said it (making a 41 emulator from the F/A product) could not be done. The reasons so many things changed is exactly why they said it couldn't be done, but Bill just rolled-up his sleeves and reorganized most of the 'guts' to get it done, with the resulting side-effect that they are fairly different on the inside. There are FAR more F/A modules out there than 41Trans, so I would suggest to target the F/A flavor and ignore supporting the 41Trans flavor. --Bob Prosperi |
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05-18-2023, 08:04 AM
Post: #26
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-17-2023 10:23 PM)rprosperi Wrote:(05-17-2023 11:22 AM)ThomasF Wrote: AFAIK the two Forth implementations are basically identical apart from the assembler part in the first module and built-in words for RPN/HP41 in the other.This highlighted section is not correct. Though outwardly quite similar, the internals of these two products are very different and most words are at different addresses, which is probably a big issue for a development tool. Thanks for the insights to the development of that module! I've just been using the two modules to do some simple Forth-programming back in the days and for that purpose I don't recall any difference (apart from the Assembler/RPN parts). But yes, if you look closer there is probably big differences just as you mentioned, making it hard to develop tools like a debugger or de-compiler tools for it. Cheers, Thomas [35/45/55/65/67/97/80 21/25/29C 31E/32E/33E|C/34C/38E 41C|CV|CX 71B 10C/11C/12C/15C|CE/16C 32S|SII/42S 28C|S 48GX/49G/50G 35S 41X] |
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05-18-2023, 08:31 AM
Post: #27
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
From THE HP-41 TRANSLATOR PAC FOR THE HP-71 by Bill Wickes:
Quote: RELATION TO THE FORTH/ASSEMBLER ROM. |
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05-18-2023, 10:53 AM
Post: #28
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
Does anyone have the details behind the C71 ROM? It is a third party 64KB ROM with (I believe) Forth embedded in the code rather than as a separate 32KB hard ROM. C71 emulates all the Voyager models- I'd love to have the two keyboard overlays that went with it.
Remember kids, "In a democracy, you get the government you deserve." |
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05-18-2023, 12:28 PM
Post: #29
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-18-2023 10:53 AM)mfleming Wrote: Does anyone have the details behind the C71 ROM? It is a third party 64KB ROM with (I believe) Forth embedded in the code rather than as a separate 32KB hard ROM. C71 emulates all the Voyager models- I'd love to have the two keyboard overlays that went with it. C71 was built using Soft Forth from CMT - the best resources about Soft Forth are on JFG's site here: http://www.jeffcalc.hp41.eu/emu71/index.html#sforth The full manual is available. After years of searching, it was finally found in a predictable place, Richard Nelson's collection, rescued when he dissolved that. Here's the PDF: https://literature.hpcalc.org/items/1248 Fairly high quality images of the 2 overlays can be found in the Emu71/Win overlay pkg here: https://hp.giesselink.com/Emu71/Kmlpc/EMU71_Overlays.7z I have only seen 2 original sets of C71 overlays in all the years I've looked for them, and they're not for sale... A well-known eBay seller for HP stuff has mentioned possibly making some to sell, but he wasn't sure how much interest there would be, so maybe he should find out? But someone please start a new thread for that, no need to further Hijack this one more than we already have... --Bob Prosperi |
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05-18-2023, 09:54 PM
Post: #30
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-18-2023 12:28 PM)rprosperi Wrote: no need to further Hijack this one more than we already have...Agreed (05-18-2023 12:28 PM)rprosperi Wrote: A well-known eBay seller for HP stuff has mentioned possibly making some to sell, but he wasn't sure how much interest there would be, so maybe he should find out? But someone please start a new thread for thatAlthough there weren't many custom keyboard overlays, it would be interesting to gauge interest in reproductions via a separate thread. Remember kids, "In a democracy, you get the government you deserve." |
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05-20-2023, 02:00 PM
Post: #31
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-18-2023 12:28 PM)rprosperi Wrote: https://hp.giesselink.com/Emu71/Kmlpc/EMU71_Overlays.7z I was opening the first overlay REAL71BL_AMP4.bmp just as guess and could see the letter "c". Then I was thinking if we should move this forum to another XXX site ;-) I had a good laugh. Direct to the point. Thats my day.. HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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05-28-2023, 08:38 PM
Post: #32
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-17-2023 12:40 AM)dmh Wrote: Check out NQueens in FORTH for the 71b here. Question: what width of the text file has to be used before a transfer with lifutils is started? 80 characters maximum? does have the blank characters an effect on the memory used later by the forth programm in the hp71B? Or one command by line in the text file must be edited later on the HP71B? (I could not find any information of editor use in the hp71B what character per line is acceptable) HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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05-28-2023, 11:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2023 02:15 AM by rprosperi.)
Post: #33
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-28-2023 08:38 PM)floppy Wrote:(05-17-2023 12:40 AM)dmh Wrote: Check out NQueens in FORTH for the 71b here. Not sure I understand all the questions here, but I'll try. Forth syntax is free you can have as many words on an input line as you like, separated be one or more spaces, or only one per line, etc. I would not make lines longer than 96 chars as I think that's the absolute limit, but anything over 80 is annoying, even on full size screens, and more than 22 will not fit on a 71b screen, so why use longer? I've no idea at all what line length has to do with lifutils transfers being started, so I assume this is a translation issue?? --Bob Prosperi |
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05-29-2023, 12:30 AM
Post: #34
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
Historically, Forth source code was saved in a "screen", a 1K long buffer consisting of 16 lines, 64 chars each.
The 71B text editor relax this constraint, but I generally follow the original 16x64 standard when I am writing Forth, which is not often these days. Also, screen filename are generally names screen or scr with a number following it. Example: HP-75C Forth file listing ... Code: Name Type Len Contents |
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05-29-2023, 02:42 AM
Post: #35
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
For what it's worth, a great way of exploring Forth is via an excellent BBC Micro emulator called BeebEm. Much as there are versions for other operating systems, I'd only recommend the Windows version, purely because you can end up with gnarly keyboard mapping issues on other platforms. The emulator itself is faultless and simple to use (as ever, scan the help docs, which are thankfully brief).
Best of all, AcornSoft released Forth for the BBC and both the BBC Micro documentation and the Forth for the BBC Micro documentation have been "remastered" - which involved the following: - The look and layout of the original guides is preserved. - All errata corrections have been applied to the text. - Corrected all OCR errors, incorrect page number references and any factual errors found. - All diagrams redrawn in vectors. - Extensive use of hyperlinks - click on any 'see page', 'see chapter' or BASIC keyword text to jump straight to the relevant page. As you can see, I've got other related docs (some of which are dog-eared scans) but I've bundled some essential stuff in a single zip below. And this video shows the specifics of setting up Forth itself on the BBC Micro emulator. Here's the bundle of docs, if you want any others shown in the screenshot, let me know. http://www.mkw.me.uk/beebem/index.html Forth 1-03 ROM |
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06-05-2023, 11:29 AM
Post: #36
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(05-16-2023 09:55 PM)rprosperi Wrote: Here's a 71B RAM Editor.Thanks. Could you describe what it does or could you inform where is the description of it? I would like now to rework this in a modern Forth but if address are HW specific (what I guess), I have to understand first what it does and what address its reading. Perhaps something like Dump? And: any similar Forth (2012, 2022..) program to EXPECT96 is welcome, too (I have to create this word in a modern forth). HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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06-05-2023, 12:16 PM
Post: #37
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(06-05-2023 11:29 AM)floppy Wrote: [snip] The original RAMEDIT was published in PPC Journal V12N4P45. As noted above, INADDR was originally a BASIC program called via BASICX from within RAMED's Forth code, but I re-wrote that in Forth. This program is a RAM editor (for HEX editing bytes in memory) and is highly 71B-specific, assuming the 71B's RAM structure, limited 22-char display, etc. so unlikely to easily port to another platform. EXPECT96 is a 71B Forth-unique word, based on the 71B's internal buffers, etc. however I believe EXPECT is a standard word found in most Forth implementations. hth --Bob Prosperi |
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06-05-2023, 07:52 PM
Post: #38
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
How to get a copy of "PPC Journal V12N4P45" ?
HP71B 4TH/ASM/Multimod, HP41CV/X/Y & Nov64d, PILBOX, HP-IL 821.62A & 64A & 66A, Deb11 64b-PC & PI2 3 4 w/ ILPER, VIDEO80, V41 & EMU71, DM41X |
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06-05-2023, 08:22 PM
Post: #39
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RE: FORTH & HP: where to start?
(06-05-2023 07:52 PM)floppy Wrote: How to get a copy of "PPC Journal V12N4P45" ? Order the PPC Archive collection from Jake Schwartz here: http://www.pahhc.org/ppccdrom.htm It is an enormous collection of essentially all of PPC's published works, plus CHHU, and HPX, and HPCC and all the HHC conventions, and all of EduCALC's catalogs and other material, and a rapidly growing collection of other HP calculator materials such as catalogs, brochures, white papers, etc. In short, you want this for hundreds of reasons. Once you order it, let me know, I'll scan that Journal article and send it to you, so you can continue working while waiting for this to arrive. --Bob Prosperi |
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