Please can you beta-test this unusual Free42 skin

[dm319]

(10-29-2023 12:04 AM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  Note that this is how the Plus42 PARSE function works already: it parses the equation, and then from the parse tree, it generates an RPN program.

This is pretty fascinating. Given that RPN is a lot like assembly (at least from my lay-person point of view), you are basically writing a compiler! It reminds me of a thread I started several years ago on the swiss micros forum. I was relatively new to programming these devices back then, but I do stand by my assertion that these machines are not optimal for programming. Having recently tried to implement a plus42-like TVM for my DM42 in NSTK mode, and spending a lot of time scrolling around looking for labels and having to draw out maps of what happens when certain GTOs are invoked etc..

But still, I guess it is hard to get that balance between a device that is so optimised for rapid calculations, like the HP-42s is, against an ability to program it easily while still being able to understand that program when you go back to it.

Anyway, if one day you do consider taking on this project, you can be assured you have at least one strong supporter of it here!

[dm319]

(10-28-2023 06:46 PM)MickM Wrote:  On the Mac desktop app I place the gif, layout and CONST.raw files into:

I think it is todo with my CONST.raw file - let me see if I can fix it!

[dm319]

Ok I got the CONST.raw properly loaded in.

It seems to work ok, though it really doesn't like that my calculator is set up as NSTK.

[MickM]

(10-30-2023 02:48 PM)dm319 Wrote:  It seems to work ok, though it really doesn't like that my calculator is set up as NSTK.

I've never used NSTK, although it's certainly something I'd like to explore. If you're able to identify what about the program messes up NSTK I'd obviously do whatever I could to fix it. That being said, Thomas is urging me to use his new FUNC capability within CONST so I'm going to explore that today. Perhaps when using FUNC the NSTK incompatibility goes away, no idea though.

I'm quietly wondering if anybody else in the forum has successfully loaded the CONST program and been able to use it, so that I could get their feedback about it - hint ;-) ...

[johnb]

(10-28-2023 01:08 PM)MickM Wrote:  I guess that depends on your field.

(10-28-2023 06:21 PM)dm319 Wrote:  You'll never make everyone happy with a single layout I'm afraid!

Agreed on both, and I absolutely get this! Though I'm not an electronics engineer (I do software), I appreciate the utility of other fields having tailored skins. So, kudos for a great job!

Actually, I'd love to see a very similar skin for more general usage (using those SI buttons for other purposes), but that's probably more trouble than you want to go to.

 

(10-28-2023 06:21 PM)dm319 Wrote:  Does anyone use a physical calculator?

I certainly do, in my daily work, as often as I can. The haptic "buzz" on my phone just cannot compete with true tactile feedback, and I prefer the displays on my physical calculators as well.

HOWEVER... I have Plus42 on my phone, as well as emulators for the 48g, 16c, and others, and I use them, because it's sometimes just not convenient to carry a physical calculator, but I almost always have my phone with me.

[MickM]

(10-30-2023 06:34 PM)johnb Wrote:  Actually, I'd love to see a very similar skin for more general usage (using those SI buttons for other purposes), but that's probably more trouble than you want to go to.

This skin has taken me a LOT of time to develop, although now that it's (almost) done somebody could easily tweak it for that purpose. From an ergonomics perspective I'd start with the attached.
EDIT: Maybe not - I don't think I like that ENTER is now apparently more removed from the numeric entry area in that arrangement (whereas it wasn't in my layout)... I don't want to go down that rat hole again at the moment.
   
   

[johnb]

(10-30-2023 08:04 PM)MickM Wrote:  I don't think I like that ENTER is now apparently more removed from the numeric entry area in that arrangement (whereas it wasn't in my layout)... I don't want to go down that rat hole again at the moment.

First, THANKS for this first attempt! It's far more than any of us should deserve.

Second, I quite agree about it being a "rat hole." No need in wasting your time trying to improve that when you're already trying to perfect the skin you expect to be using full-time! :-D

It's definitely a rathole or rabbit-hole... even though I feel less strongly about the ENTER being too far away, your point is valid. I started moving things around in my head, and rapidly found "well, if I move this here, then where do I put the key(s) I just moved?" My brain rapidly exceeded stack depth (LOL!) and I realized I'd have to actually fiddle with the graphics for real, either on paper or on the monitor.

[MickM]

(10-30-2023 02:48 PM)dm319 Wrote:  It seems to work ok, though it really doesn't like that my calculator is set up as NSTK.

I've just tried NSTK and can't say I saw anything that surprised me. Could you please let me know the issue you saw, and also what platform you were on. If you're on the phone (that doesn't have a beta version available) then that CONST hack I spoke of earlier *might* be the cause of the grief you're observing. The hack is that if the X-register contains 0 then the constant you select will be loaded directly into the X-register without a stack lift (as though a CLX had been done just beforehand). In the beta version of the desktop app it actually respects the user stack lift disable that may have been called for by doing a CLX vs a legitimate 0.00 being in the X-register without a CLX having been done.

[MickM]

Just wondering about your quick thought on the following. As a safe play against clobbering some existing program for a user who tries my skin, should I rename the CONST program to something slightly more unique e.g. CONST' (with an apostrophe at the end). Or am I being too paranoid? Does Windows or Linux object to such a character in their filenames?

[Thomas Okken]

Note that the name of a raw file does not have to match the name of the first global label it contains.
That is the way the filename is pre-populated in the Export Programs save dialog, but you can change it to something else.

[MickM]

(10-31-2023 05:32 PM)Thomas Okken Wrote:  Note that the name of a raw file does not have to match the name of the first global label it contains.
That is the way the filename is pre-populated in the Export Programs save dialog, but you can change it to something else.

Agreed, and thanks for clarifying - the filename and the program name are indeed decoupled (which I was aware of). For simplicity sake I was just going with a file named CONST'.raw containing a program called CONST'. The primary issue is still the safe play behind naming the program CONST' because it's likely a much less common program name. I'm not adamant on doing this if there are objections - just looking for opinions :-)

[MickM]

I realize activity in this thread has effectively ceased now that there are only subtle things left to fix (possibly only by Thomas), but I figured I'd put the latest versions in post #1 and update everybody with progress.

If anybody using the desktop app has found my smallest skin (the "402_D" one) to be too big for their display then please let me know and I'll make an even smaller one. This may be the case when using e.g. an older laptop with not so great resolution.

Since the last release I've focused almost exclusively on validating hot-keys on the 3 desktop platforms. I was finally able to get my hands on a Linux and Windows machine and I fixed many hot-key bugs in those worlds (as well as a couple Mac ones). In the skin graphics I removed a highlight around COMPLEX (⇧/) as it doesn't bring up a menu, and I also changed the text above the π button from CONST to CONSTANT.

As of today's version, the currently known bug list is:

PHONE:
none
MAC:
none
LINUX:
⇧Space hot-key doesn't work
The numeric pad works irrespective of the state of Num_Lock :-), but its hot-keys for Shift Add/Subtract/Multiply/Divide don't work
The F10 hot-key (not really critical) doesn't work because it brings up the app's local menu for manual, vs mouse, navigation. A system preference setting is likely the cause.
WINDOWS:
⌥m hot-key doesn't work (it brings up the "About Free42..." dialog box instead)
The numeric pad is ONLY useful if Num_Lock is ON, and even then it still doesn't work quite right :-(
- If Shift is depressed while you press any of 0→9 or "." then associated hot-key does not work.
- If Shift is depressed while you press any other numeric pad key then associated hot-key does work.

I'm still working with Thomas to fix these bugs if possible (no promises). He is the ONLY reason the Mac version is bug free (for which I am eternally grateful)! Note that, for now, the graphical documentation for the Windows/Linux numeric pad area assumes no bugs - that may have to change...

[MickM]

(10-30-2023 06:34 PM)johnb Wrote:  Actually, I'd love to see a very similar skin for more general usage (using those SI buttons for other purposes), but that's probably more trouble than you want to go to.

JohnB: I did try PM'ing you a a couple days back to see if you wanted to pick this up off-line, but I didn't get an answer. Only in case anybody else is interested, I took another stab at a Plus42-ish layout that addressed my concerns with the previous "quickie" hack I slapped together right after your request. In case any of you gag at the math function button fonts, I kind of felt the top half of the layout looked too much like a sea of formal uppercase mnemonics that kind of forced you to read all the buttons. Nothing is cast in stone - I'm just doodling around and trying stuff while I wait for Thomas to hopefully fix a couple more things for the layout file...

Also, I really don't have any idea about what Plus42-specific functions and buttons should go on this skin. At this point, it's not too bad for me to come up with different graphics versions - it's the layout file that's the pain. I'm not sure I want to tackle that again - maybe somebody else could express interest in picking up the torch (and I could help them) :-).
   

[Eddie W. Shore]

It's going to take a little getting used to having the soft functions not connected to any of the keys.

I like the new constants menu.

[MickM]

(11-09-2023 05:23 AM)Eddie W. Shore Wrote:  It's going to take a little getting used to having the soft functions not connected to any of the keys.

Agreed, but you do get used to it soon enough and it becomes completely natural. It makes intuitive sense to click on the "button" displaying the label of the function you want. I've been immersed in this skin for months now - at this point I don't think my brain could deal with pressing one button to get the function provided by a different (albeit adjacent) button...

You'll likely have similar issues acclimatizing to the new layout, but I found the functional clustering of the buttons really helped get over that hump.

Glad you like the CONSTANT feature. Feel free to modify it to suit your professional needs - it was made just for that reason!

[MickM]

I have updated the files and graphics in the first post. Please don't forget to also download the latest test builds of Free42 and/or Plus42 (updated today). At this point, I believe all hot-key assignments work on all platforms - that was an enormous amount of time to get right (just take a look at one of the desktop version layout files!). I don't want to jinx myself, but I'm inclined to think all the bugs are squashed at this point. What remains is considering any further feedback about moving stuff around etc.

I also moved around a few buttons based on feedback I've received elsewhere. I think it came out better - you can follow the rationale in the graphic in the first post.

I also changed the font for the mathematical functions on the top 3 rows so that they are all in standard lowercase notation (HP used a mixture). If I get around to making a Plus42 skin the top of the calculator just becomes way too full of 3-4 uppercase character buttons and it looks more confusing without this lowercase change. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this change, but please give yourself some time to get used to it first.

[MickM]

Apologies to the one person who downloaded yesterday's update. I swapped two adjacent buttons to conveniently allow x! to be a part of the statistics cluster. Merged the two graphical documentation files into one given that it's apparent I need an accompanying text file (which I'm working on).

[MickM]

The beta-testing has finished! Thanks to all who helped :-). Thomas has officially released Free42 v3.1 and made this skin available at:
https://thomasokken.com/free42/skins/
Note that the name changed slightly to Mueck_MN (for Metric Notation). Anybody who downloaded a beta version and is still using it should use the released version instead. There was actually an error in one of the last beta versions I posted (it was only in Mueck_536D.layout) but it's fixed in the released version.

I have removed all the beta attachments at the end of the 1st post, with the exception of the final graphical documentation file and the temporarily 'hacked' CONST.txt program in case you want to use the skin with the current version of Plus42. Once Plus42 is updated to version 1.1 (in about 2 weeks) you should then use the CONST program available at the above URL instead.

Once again, thank you everybody!

[crun]

I like your ideas. Unfortunately, I now find myself using my '42 in exams - 35 years after I bought it. Thus I need to keep to a "basic" key layout, not moving anything I use on the actual '42

But like you I find micro,nano and in particular pico both frequent and wearisome. I think I would quite like it that when E is displayed, and before you have pressed any other key, that SIN enters "-6" COS "-9" and TAN "-12"
As soon as any other number or function is pressed that ceases.

I thought I could program it, but the lack of a way to send keys 1-6 to displayed menu items, seems to make it impossible. (i.e. I can make a program and use GETKEY, then dispatch the function. However if a menu is displayed and key 2 is pressed, sending "1/X" does not work.

[MickM]

Sorry for the late reply - I don't recall seeing an email indicating that this thread was updated. I can see why you wouldn't be allowed to bring a phone with a calculator app into an exam - you could just use the internet or ChatGPT to get all your answers! That tethers you to a physical calculator and if the keyboard arrangement on the two is different then that does present a challenge... Fortunately for me, my exam days are looooong behind me - although my finals are getting closer every day ;-).

As an aside, I've also been working on a version of the skin without metric notation (i.e. using the standard 7 rows vs the current 8). Making those two skins be as similar as possible has resulted in the need to make a version 2 layout of the already released metric notation skin . I'll release both versions in the near future. Hopefully that won't cause too many issues given that the original version was only recently released.