The Rogue HP-12c

[dm319]

(10-08-2024 08:08 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  We may have a "winner" Of course I'm not 100% certain.

This is truly the most impressive detective work I have seen in a while.

(10-08-2024 08:08 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  The "ICE" looks like it uses I2C based on the signal names.

Urghh! My split keyboard uses it to communicate between each half but I doubt I could hack my keyboard to communicate with it!

(10-08-2024 08:08 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Can you say "BCD math"?

You are lucky you are not in the same country as me or else you might be subject to an unwanted physical display of affection.

This is very interesting. It performs a lot better than the Platinum at the +1 speed test. Is that because the processor is different (sorry I need to look into your links further) or is it because the code is optimised to use this co-processor?

D

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-08-2024 12:50 PM)dm319 Wrote:  You are lucky you are not in the same country as me or else you might be subject to an unwanted physical display of affection.

No offense but I prefer women

(10-08-2024 12:50 PM)dm319 Wrote:  Is that because the processor is different...

Probably. Newer design so probably faster. I don't know what clock rate the firmware uses. I'm still researching.

A1

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-08-2024 08:08 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  8-bit CPU (6502?) just like the HP-12C Platinum/Prestige.

I'm looking at an application note right now and the example code looks like 6502 assembler to me.

From the datasheet

Quote:6.2.1. PLL (Phase Lock Loop)

The purpose of PLL is provided by XTAL32 (32768Hz) and it
pumps the frequency from 2.048MHz to 8.192MHz for system
clock (FOSC). The default PLL frequency is 2.048MHz.

8MHz is 1980's speed?!? Is the firmware written in assembler?

A1

[AnnoyedOne]

Quote:G+IDE for 6502

G+ Probe/ICE Firmware Updater

G+ ISP Flasher Tool

https://www.generalplus.com/1LVlangLNs7S..._support_d

A1

PS: GeneralPlus claims that there's "GPL833FXX Programming Guide - V1.8 - 2024-01-19" but I can't find a downloadable copy. Nor have I been able to find much about their programmer.

[dm319]

(10-08-2024 12:56 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  No offense but I prefer women

I think you are safe...!

(10-08-2024 01:09 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  8MHz is 1980's speed?!? Is the firmware written in assembler?

This seems very painful. I'm not familiar with programming these things, but wouldn't most programmers work on, say, C code, and then compile it for the platform?

Bit of googling came across this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cc65

The picture of this device has changed significantly though. This isn't a random bit of firmware made by someone for fun and running on the available hardware, which is what I originally thought might be a possibility. This is a specific platform which seems to have some very specific design choices. Instead of using the easy option of a 64-bit binary architecture, it is using 16 digit BCD, with a co-processor to accelerate these calculations. Yes the TVM software re-written, but this is basically a whole new calculator platform. It could be quite a nice 12c revision if we got some good TVM solving code in there.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-08-2024 05:40 PM)dm319 Wrote:  I think you are safe...!

Unfortunately, for me, that is true!

(10-08-2024 05:40 PM)dm319 Wrote:  This seems very painful.

For larger projects yes. I stopped writing in assembler years ago. That said I remember how.

I wrote in plain 'C'. Not C++ or anything fancy. Sometimes I'd hand-optimise functions in 'C' or assembler to speed things up.

A1

[Surfin]

(10-08-2024 12:50 PM)dm319 Wrote:  

(10-08-2024 08:08 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  We may have a "winner" Of course I'm not 100% certain.

This is truly the most impressive detective work I have seen in a while.

Yes, really impressive!!

So we need a new cable, not even the old serial..
Also new 'flasher'.


Now some new theory (no facts, just 'from my head'): have anyone opened a new Platinum/Moravia unit, to check the internals?
And what if they are all the same, and just the Chinese version got this firmware with 'bugs', while the Philipines variant already shipped with the corrected software? or a previous non-beta/bug firmware?

#thinking

[dm319]

(10-08-2024 08:29 PM)Surfin Wrote:  So we need a new cable, not even the old serial..
Also new 'flasher'.

Yes, this is a pain!! I'm also disappointed to see that the firmware for the 6502 will likely be unintelligible except by those who have done a lot of assembly. Cough, A1, cough.

(10-08-2024 08:29 PM)Surfin Wrote:  Now some new theory (no facts, just 'from my head'): have anyone opened a new Platinum/Moravia unit, to check the internals?

It's the dawning realisation that this is really a Platinum in disguise. The regular 12c never ran on 6502. Despite the gold colour, the lack of a 'platinum' or 'prestige' badge, it's really a platinum! And on a newer hardware platform - though I don't know why one would pick 6502 again, especially if the platinum firmware is being thrown out (I'll have to dig around but I believe it was Saturn-like C code - whereas this is a new 16 digit BCD).

(10-08-2024 08:29 PM)Surfin Wrote:  And what if they are all the same, and just the Chinese version got this firmware with 'bugs', while the Philipines variant already shipped with the corrected software? or a previous non-beta/bug firmware?

Thanks for putting 'bugs' in quotes - not only is the TVM solver reimplemented, but basically the whole calculator platform seems to be reimplemented.

Have a look at this video which I've just watched today at around 27 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9_mBvIKjCE

There is talk of a HP-12c 'ultimate' or 'premium'. It's meant to have dot matrix, USB-C and rechargeable battery which doesn't quite fit, but they do state they are making this because IC has become end of life.

#thinking also

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-08-2024 09:11 PM)dm319 Wrote:  Have a look at this video which I've just watched today at around 27 minutes:

See also

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-20...#pid178307

Unknown to me until yesterday as well. Is this "rogue" HP-12C a "secret" (despite being announced in public a year ago) Moravia (HP-12C Platinum) redesign project? Sold to "guinea pigs" in Brazil (only)?

A1

PS: There's a new in package "Made in the Philippines" Moravia HP-12C Platinum for sale on eBay. The same innards?

[dm319]

(10-09-2024 10:20 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  PS: There's a new in package "Made in the Philippines" Moravia HP-12C Platinum for sale on eBay. The same innards?

I am so confused now! I thought Platinums were made in China? Does anyone fancy getting hold of one of these and we can scratch our collective heads over another 12c?

[Idnarn]

(10-10-2024 06:58 PM)dm319 Wrote:  

(10-09-2024 10:20 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  PS: There's a new in package "Made in the Philippines" Moravia HP-12C Platinum for sale on eBay. The same innards?

I am so confused now! I thought Platinums were made in China? Does anyone fancy getting hold of one of these and we can scratch our collective heads over another 12c?

I have a few of the made in Philippines 12C platinums. Please ask if you want to see anything.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-11-2024 03:54 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  Please ask if you want to see anything.

If they were manufactured (not purchased!) in 2023/2024 then yes. On the other hand if yours are older then no.

From off, hold g and ENTER, then press ON. The display shows 1.L 2.C 3.h or 1.L 2.C 3.h 4.CPu in later 12CP's. Pressing 2 (2.C) should show the firmware information. I believe that 12CP'S have a brief delay (while calculating the checksum?) before showing

Code:


ChE--564Ah
Ver 02
C 2004 hP

[One line at a time--press any key for the next line.]

[Idnarn]

(10-11-2024 04:17 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  

(10-11-2024 03:54 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  Please ask if you want to see anything.

If they were manufactured (not purchased!) in 2023/2024 then yes. On the other hand if yours are older then no.

From off, hold g and ENTER, then press ON. The display shows 1.L 2.C 3.h or 1.L 2.C 3.h 4.CPu in later 12CP's. Pressing 2 (2.C) should show the firmware information. I believe that 12CP'S have a brief delay (while calculating the checksum?) before showing

Code:


ChE--564Ah
Ver 02
C 2004 hP

[One line at a time--press any key for the next line.]

In my units, the display shows 1.L 2.C 3.h 4.CPu and the checksum, Ver and copyright are the same as you've posted above. Any key doesn't get to the next line, only Enter does.

[Surfin]

(10-11-2024 04:23 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  In my units, the display shows 1.L 2.C 3.h 4.CPu and the checksum, Ver and copyright are the same as you've posted above. Any key doesn't get to the next line, only Enter does.

Is the "serial number" of your* unit a 6 or 10 digit one?
I think the newer hardware is the 6 digit.


*correct typing error

[Idnarn]

(10-08-2024 09:11 PM)dm319 Wrote:  There is talk of a HP-12c 'ultimate' or 'premium'. It's meant to have dot matrix, USB-C and rechargeable battery which doesn't quite fit, but they do state they are making this because IC has become end of life.

The displays on these Moravia made-in-Philippines 12C Platinums are dull/low-contrast. The 15C CE displays look much cleaner. Even $10 Casio calculators have displays with good contrast - it's something that Moravia should address if they are going to release a newer model.

[Idnarn]

(10-11-2024 04:36 PM)Surfin Wrote:  

(10-11-2024 04:23 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  In my units, the display shows 1.L 2.C 3.h 4.CPu and the checksum, Ver and copyright are the same as you've posted above. Any key doesn't get to the next line, only Enter does.

Is the "serial number" of you unit a 6 or 10 digit one?
I think the newer hardware is the 6 digit.

Here is a photo of the back of one of the calculators:

https://imgur.com/a/8b4d62g

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-11-2024 04:37 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  The displays on these Moravia made-in-Philippines 12C Platinums are dull/low-contrast.

Adjustable I believe. As are all 12CP's.

(10-11-2024 04:37 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  ...it's something that Moravia should address if they are going to release a newer model.

Moravia said that a new version would be out in "late 2024/early 2025". New hardware and probably firmware. I don't know about the LCD.

Watch the above video (and read this whole thread).

A1

[Idnarn]

(10-11-2024 04:46 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  

(10-11-2024 04:37 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  The displays on these Moravia made-in-Philippines 12C Platinums are dull/low-contrast.

Adjustable I believe. As are all 12CP's.

Yes, but what I meant was that they are dull/blurry and not crisp. Using F + to increase the contrast makes other "off" 7-segments start showing and it can't be used that way. So adjusting the contrast is not what I mean. The display is not of good quality.

An example of a monochrome LCD that I used recently which was impressive is the one on the Garmin eTrex SE GPS receiver. I believe it's a Sharp memory LCD: https://sharpdevices.com/memory-lcd/
Perhaps some of the Swiss Micro flagship calculators use these displays too.

For a calculator, even the Casio cheaper scientifics that have seven segment patterns (rather than dot-matrix) have clear crisp looking digits.

[Surfin]

(10-11-2024 04:44 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  Here is a photo of the back of one of the calculators:

https://imgur.com/a/8b4d62g

And look who´s here!?
Seems like a "Moravia Platinum", from Philippines!
Short serial, with screw on battery cover.

The firmware we already now it´s the classic Platinum one, based on your previous test.

*If* you have experience in opening 12C´s, and you are willing to open it to check internals, would be interesting.
If not, maybe a photo of the back without the battery cover? Just to check if now we have the cable connection.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-11-2024 05:29 PM)Surfin Wrote:  Seems like a "Moravia Platinum", from Philippines!

Yes! Serial 9CJ302 (302= 2nd week of 2023), Made in Philippines. 2x CR2032. Battery cover screw. "Hewlett Packard" on the front bezel or blank? Blank = Moravia unit.

Firmware

Quote:ChE--564Ah
Ver 02
C 2004 hP

so the same as older versions (I was expecting new)?

(10-11-2024 05:29 PM)Surfin Wrote:  Just to check if now we have the cable connection.

If there is one probably not serial or USB.

(10-11-2024 04:23 PM)Idnarn Wrote:  In my units, the display shows 1.L 2.C 3.h 4.CPu...

What does "4.CPu" report? The GPLB31A version says "3886160 h2". The "rogue"?

A1