One of us

[Thomas Klemm]

At 49:30 in this video Ben Eater grabs an HP-16C to translate 42 d to binary 101010 b:




I can highly recommend his playlist Building an 8-bit breadboard computer!

Cheers
Thomas

[Idnarn]

(01-20-2019 03:37 PM)Thomas Klemm Wrote:  At 49:30 in this video Ben Eater grabs an HP-16C to translate 42 d to binary 101010 b:

I have a question. I wonder about what use-case a HP 16C would have in today's world. What is a HP 16C good for nowadays other than a novelty?

A typical C programmer who has been programming for a few years can convert hex to binary in their mind trivially. It's a mapping from each hex digit to a nibble (8 + 4 + 2 + 1). As a pattern this is used to store/pass binary flags (as options) in an unsigned int.

Maybe in olden days when programmers were timesharing and had little actual computer-facing time, a 16C would have been more useful when preparing programs on paper. Anyone who is programming today is already using a computer and can evaluate all sorts of operations in a Python shell for example. Perhaps this is why there is no production model of 16C from Moravia.

[brouhaha]

(11-13-2024 04:01 AM)Idnarn Wrote:  A typical C programmer who has been programming for a few years can convert hex to binary in their mind trivially. It's a mapping from each hex digit to a nibble (8 + 4 + 2 + 1). As a pattern this is used to store/pass binary flags (as options) in an unsigned int.

Sure, that's trivial, but I often have to add two or more 32-bit or even 64-bit hexadecimal values, and I really don't want to use paper and pencil, or fire up a program on a PC. Having a 16C at hand is MUCH more convenient.

[battlecoder]

(11-13-2024 04:01 AM)Idnarn Wrote:  I have a question. I wonder about what use-case a HP 16C would have in today's world. What is a HP 16C good for nowadays other than a novelty?

A typical C programmer who has been programming for a few years can convert hex to binary in their mind trivially. It's a mapping from each hex digit to a nibble (8 + 4 + 2 + 1). As a pattern this is used to store/pass binary flags (as options) in an unsigned int.

Maybe in olden days when programmers were timesharing and had little actual computer-facing time, a 16C would have been more useful when preparing programs on paper. Anyone who is programming today is already using a computer and can evaluate all sorts of operations in a Python shell for example. Perhaps this is why there is no production model of 16C from Moravia.

If I may add my 2 cents here; while I can do a lot of hex<->bin<->dec conversion in my head, it gets a lot harder for > 8 or 10 bits. Plus, masking and shifting and bit manipulation in general is not easy to do without pen and paper (which is what I've been using so far)
I've also tried using my other calcs with their base conversion modes, and basic boolean algebra support, and they are very lacking, so it gets frustrating really fast.

As a disclaimer: I don't have an HP16C but I've been using an emulator on my phone, and most recently my 15C CE in 16C mode + the keyboard overlay, and also a PX16C kit. A 16C is far more efficient for me than pen and paper.

Now, you are correct. Most programmers nowadays rarely need to deal with bits or numbers at that level, so I agree that there isn't a huge market for this kind of device.

Re: opening a python shell, I don't like to switch in and out from my actual work to a different app or tab if I can avoid it, and technically you could make the same argument for any other calculator and an equivalent app (or wolfram alpha) instead of a "python shell".

But I prefer an actual physical device for calculations while studying or working, in general.

One final though; Technically it should be possible to write an app on almost any decent programmable calculator that would have most of the features of the 16C (In fact, I wanted to do that for the Prime) and that's yet another thing that makes it harder to justify "a modern 16C". Anyone needing bit-level manipulation and easy base conversion could write a program to help them with that on their programmable calcs.

[pascal_meheut]

(11-13-2024 04:01 AM)Idnarn Wrote:  I have a question. I wonder about what use-case a HP 16C would have in today's world. What is a HP 16C good for nowadays other than a novelty?

I do not program a lot in C nowadays, I think the last time I was involved in a serious project was the WP-34C. But I have a lof of experience even in assembly language.

When I need to do conversions, shifts and so on, I use an HP-16C because it is fast and convenient. And because I also need to convert to and from decimal which is not that trivial.
Another reason is that even if I can do many things in my head and used to, I tend to rely more on tools for tasks with very little added value such as conversions. Why spending my brain CPU cycles to do so when my calculator is faster and less error prone?

[cdmackay]

(11-13-2024 04:01 AM)Idnarn Wrote:  I have a question. I wonder about what use-case a HP 16C would have in today's world. What is a HP 16C good for nowadays other than a novelty?

I find it useful for work, when looking at computer OS crash dumps. I use it to check which bits (flags) are set in a 64-bit word, or to test a particular bit, or to extract a subset of bits (e.g. applying a mask & shift) which I might get wrong trying to do it in my head.

[KeithB]

I don't have a 16C, and my HP71 is pretty clumsy with bits, so I use the Microsoft calculator in Programmer mode. It is nice to be able to enter a number in decimal (hex) and immediately see the value in hex (decimal).

I guess I am not a "typical C programmer", though I have written thousands of lines of code in C and C#, and several large applications.

[Thomas Klemm]

(11-13-2024 04:01 AM)Idnarn Wrote:  What is a HP 16C good for nowadays other than a novelty?

It allows a short program to the Tower of Hanoi.

[John Garza (3665)]

Very few programmers use bit-fiddling these days.
90+% of coding never gets down to that level.
Base conversion was useful in tinkering with old Altair & S-100 computers.
Binary-Octal-Hex
But after a while it's just quicker to do it in your head than look for a calculator.
Definitely a niche market item.

-J

[Garth Wilson]

I don't have a 16C, but I've used the number-conversion and Boolean-logic functions in the 41's Advantage module quite a bit for a few microcontroller-programming projects in my work over the years.  One of them, ten years ago, included a 7-byte (including a checksum byte) key's encryption & decryption the customer wanted to make reverse-engineering difficult, so I used a dizzying combination of rotates, XORs, NOTs, shuffles, and bit reversals, and I was cross-checking my work with a calculator program.  Usually though, I just use the conversions between hex and decimal for numbers of eight to sixteen bits or occasionally 24 or 32 bits, mostly for addition and subtraction, particularly of numbers in mixed bases, again for developing programs for microcontrollers.

[Divasson]

Let’s be aware that Moravia might be reading this to gauge support for a reissue - considering that they only need to change the faceplate of an existing model, and iron out some little bugs.

So let’s show some support !!!!

[AnnoyedOne]

(11-14-2024 03:39 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Let’s be aware that Moravia might be reading this to gauge support...

I wish

And the HP15C CE 16c mode isn't good enough even though it is NOMAS and only has a few easily avoided bugs?

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid195360

Personally I'd prefer updated 12C+ firmware to support USB/Voyagersave which in theory is a simple matter of copying 15C CE code.

A1

[battlecoder]

(11-14-2024 03:39 PM)Divasson Wrote:  Let’s be aware that Moravia might be reading this to gauge support for a reissue - considering that they only need to change the faceplate of an existing model, and iron out some little bugs.

So let’s show some support !!!!

I recently acquired a PX16C, and also bought the 16C overlay for my 15C CE, and I was previously using the Android app. I think it's very clear that I like the 16C a lot.

I would absolutely love to have a modern HP 16C.

[9aplus]

Quote:I would absolutely love to have a modern HP 16C.

Me too...
Nowadays using HP16C app on RPI with 5" touch screen instead

[ThomasF]

I bought my 16C when it was introduced here in Sweden (1982?83?), and I have been using it almost daily since then! Still the same device and I can't even remember when I last changed batteries ...

Would it be low level programming on other CPU's, finding bugs in memory dumps, digging in HP41 traces from my Pico device, or even now when I'm trying to disassemble the intervals of the HP16 ROM, the 16C is very handy and always close!
And if not home, I always have the go16c on my Android device.

Apart from the 41, the 16C is the one I would miss the most!

Cheers,
Thomas

[LinusSch]

I have a SwissMicros DM16L. I wouldn't want to be without it, I would enjoy some developments and improvements - probably won't buy one with a 7-segment display though.

Maybe it is a niche use case but there sure is value to understanding the internals and fundamentals of how computers work and there sure are a lot of microcontrollers around, a lot of which need better code. I don't think this requires that programmers write at a low level, but it can certainly require that programmers understand and debug at a low level. I would not be surprised to learn that among all the niche use cases that are modern professional use cases of calculators this is one of the largest. Then again, all the rest except financial are covered by a single powerful scientific model, this is the only use case asking for a special model, so I would still expect it to sell less than other calculators.

Then again, the 15c seems like a museum piece to me and the 16c like a tool without a modern alternative. If an up-to-date alternative with a capable display (at least 2 stack levels and a soft menu at the same time, some single-view display of 64 bit binary) was made available and marketed to the people who could make use of it, I think it could sell quite a lot. But I'm mostly guessing here, I may be quite wrong. No one can know for certain but someone can make a more educated guess than me.

[AnnoyedOne]

(11-14-2024 10:34 PM)LinusSch Wrote:  ...the 16c like a tool without a modern alternative.

Yeah. You can "pry my 16C from my cold dead hands". I bought it new in 85/86.

[Apologies to the ghost of Charlton Heston.]

Hex/Dec/Oct conversion is fairly common on calculators these days but not much else.

A1

[dm319]

(11-15-2024 02:15 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Hex/Dec/Oct conversion is fairly common on calculators these days but not much else.

Can you enlighten those of us with no computing/electronic background what other useful things the HP-16c does other than simple conversions? Thankyou!

[AnnoyedOne]

(11-15-2024 04:47 PM)dm319 Wrote:  Can you enlighten those of us with no computing/electronic background what other useful things the HP-16c does other than simple conversions?

Sure.

• Bitwise logical operations: AND, OR, XOR and NOT.
• Shift/rotate operations: Left & right. One or multiple bits. Through "carry" or not.
• Mask creation: Left & right.
• Selectable wordsize.
• All the above can be used in a program.
  

Perhaps more but off the top of my head those are the essential functions.

A1

PS: As an aside

HP-15C: Scientific/engineering
HP-12C: Financial
HP-16C: Computer (low-level)

[c3d]

(11-14-2024 10:34 PM)LinusSch Wrote:  Then again, the 15c seems like a museum piece to me and the 16c like a tool without a modern alternative. If an up-to-date alternative with a capable display (at least 2 stack levels and a soft menu at the same time, some single-view display of 64 bit binary) was made available and marketed to the people who could make use of it, I think it could sell quite a lot. But I'm mostly guessing here, I may be quite wrong. No one can know for certain but someone can make a more educated guess than me.

DB48x has most of the features of the HP16C. One-complement is not really there yet, but I doubt it's used that much these days.

How can we make it more useful to you? Maybe some user-mode keyboard that would be specifically for based numbers?