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MagyarBoy · 03-08-2015, 12:11 PM

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and I offer a hearty happy Daylight Savings Time good morning. (Well for those of us in North America...)

I'm posting to ask about the HP-35S. AFAIK there is no 'HP-35S for Dummies' type of manual, that assumes the user needs handholding and spoon-feeding, to learn the operation and programming of this calculator. Is this right?

My question is, would the potential users of this calculator, benefit from such a guide? Basically a guide for the complete newbie.

I was thinking of creating a guide like this in-between my other projects and maybe having it for download on a website. Would people benefit from this effort?

On the other hand I'm sure there are already videos, websites etc. with different instructions and information. I'm wondering then whether a single how-to guide that is aimed at the complete newbie, is necessary or not? Especially since, I think, users of this type of calculator tend to be a bit more savvy than the absolute clued-out beginner. OTOH there are all kinds of people out there...

Please let me know what you think. How did *you* learn to use the HP-35S, if you have one? Did you just pick it up and learn as you went, checking the official manual as needed? Or did you study the official manual, and learn that way? How did it go?

Thanks for your comments.

Dieter · (This post was last modified: 03-08-2015 02:03 PM by Dieter.)

(03-08-2015 12:11 PM)MagyarBoy Wrote: I'm posting to ask about the HP-35S. AFAIK there is no 'HP-35S for Dummies' type of manual, that assumes the user needs handholding and spoon-feeding, to learn the operation and programming of this calculator. Is this right?

I don't think so. There is a substantial number of training modules for the 35s. Each document addresses a particular topic. An overview with dozens of PDFs can be found on the HP website. They start at the very basics of using RPN and continue with more advanced features and special topics.

(03-08-2015 12:11 PM)MagyarBoy Wrote: Please let me know what you think. How did *you* learn to use the HP-35S, if you have one?

I have been using a 34C since 1980. ;-)

At that time HP's calculators came with three printed manuals. First, a very complete one with details on every single function, programming and other internals, then a collection of user programs, and finally a concise but informative manual on working with RPN and HP's scientific calculators in general.

Dieter

Gerald H · 03-08-2015, 02:15 PM

The particularities of the 35S I learned from the hefty paper manual delivered with early models of the calculator.

Around 1996 I acquired my first HP calculator, a 48GX, & learned by playing & from the generous handbook. Publications including numerous programmes were a godsend, titles like "One Minute Marvels" opened my eyes to the efficacy of RPPL.

Later I found a 42S with rich documentation & so ended up being an aficionado of the bracketless style of arithmetic & programming.

Tugdual · (This post was last modified: 03-08-2015 08:55 PM by Tugdual.)

Most tricky aspects about thé 35s are bugs. All the rest is straightforward...

MagyarBoy · 03-08-2015, 07:38 PM

Hi everyone,
thanks for the responses so far.

I think we're saying that HP calculator users tend to understand their hardware pretty well - and even if not there are already media on the web that can guide a new user adequately? And that a 'HP-35S guide for newbies' then is not really necessary?

But is it possible that, for those of us who dwell on this forum, such a manual would be unnecessary? But that there may be people out there who might still benefit from such a manual? these are people that did not use HP calculators for many years, and are unfamiliar with their architecture and style?

OTOH wouldn't these people just buy Casio or TI instead?

Again I'm just trying to ascertain if creating an HP-35S how-to guide for dummies would be a useful way to spend time, or not...

thanks

**rprosperi** · 03-08-2015, 08:19 PM

(03-08-2015 07:38 PM)MagyarBoy Wrote: Hi everyone,
thanks for the responses so far.

I think we're saying that HP calculator users tend to understand their hardware pretty well - and even if not there are already media on the web that can guide a new user adequately? And that a 'HP-35S guide for newbies' then is not really necessary?

But is it possible that, for those of us who dwell on this forum, such a manual would be unnecessary? But that there may be people out there who might still benefit from such a manual? these are people that did not use HP calculators for many years, and are unfamiliar with their architecture and style?

OTOH wouldn't these people just buy Casio or TI instead?

Again I'm just trying to ascertain if creating an HP-35S how-to guide for dummies would be a useful way to spend time, or not...

thanks

The 35S has been relatively unpopular with forum members, primarily due to the large number of bugs found quite early in its life and never addressed by HP. In particular, with no I/O and the unreliable checksum tool, confidence in proper entry of large programs was low. That said, there has been quite a resurgence of interest in the 35S in recent months, so I would say the time is good for interest in a guide. As Tugdual noted, and has also been discussed recently, some of the bugs are not fatal and with proper precautions can be avoided.

Instead of (or in addition to) a "for Dummies" guide, at least for the Forum members (which mostly can and do read manuals) needs, I would suggest there would be more interest in a "Problem solving with 35S" type guide which explains some of the more advanced features (which there are plenty of), tips for adapting 41/42/15C programs, how to avoid the bug issues, and similar topics. I know I'd like such a guide. There are many folks here quite seasoned with the 35S that may be willing to contribute some of these portions; if you research the past few months, you will easily find these members as well as some real nuggets to form portions of the guide. Thanks for considering to contribute so early in your time here.

I think I speak for many members here saying I really want to love my 35S more than I do; maybe with such a tool I can.

TASP · (This post was last modified: 03-08-2015 08:50 PM by TASP.)

Gee.

I feel really dumb.

I've been seeing topics for 'HP35S' and had no idea what it was. And until yesterday, wasn't even motivated to find out.

Sigh. If I was HP and was going to make a commemorative update of a prior model, well, pshaw, y'all, it'd have to be the 41.

Although with the CL, maybe that would be redundant.

Wink

Tugdual · 03-08-2015, 09:08 PM

The 35s is a pretty simple machine with a robust case, a good keyboard and good screen.
Speed is very decent even if it is a pretty slow machine for its generation.
Simple, robust and cheap, are good reasons to buy it especially when most people have collectors at home that they don't want to lose or get stolen. Now for serious matters, I wouldn't pick this one, it is just a daily and convenient calculator. As a result I don't think a guide is required and learning the 35s is not any different from learning the basic concepts inherent to any rpn calculator.
Now if you feel creative and have some free time, I'm sure there will always be somebody grateful for your efforts.

Massimo Gnerucci · 03-08-2015, 09:47 PM

(03-08-2015 08:49 PM)TASP Wrote: Sigh. If I was HP and was going to make a commemorative update of a prior model, well, pshaw, y'all, it'd have to be the 41.

I concur. However, given the errors introduced in the 35S and 15CLE, I think we would be disappointed with the final result.

Long live 41CL!

Dieter · 03-08-2015, 09:59 PM

(03-08-2015 08:49 PM)TASP Wrote: Sigh. If I was HP and was going to make a commemorative update of a prior model, well, pshaw, y'all, it'd have to be the 41.

The 35s came 35 years after the original '35. So a commemorative '41 might take some time: let's wait until 2020. #-)

Dieter

Massimo Gnerucci · 03-08-2015, 10:03 PM

(03-08-2015 09:59 PM)Dieter Wrote:
(03-08-2015 08:49 PM)TASP Wrote: Sigh. If I was HP and was going to make a commemorative update of a prior model, well, pshaw, y'all, it'd have to be the 41.

The 35s came 35 years after the original '35. So a commemorative '41 might take some time: let's wait until 2020. #-)

Dieter

God bless my favourite is not the HP-80! :p

Dieter · 03-08-2015, 10:11 PM

(03-08-2015 10:03 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: God bless my favourite is not the HP-80!

Wait until the commemorative 9100A arrives. 8-)

Dieter

Massimo Gnerucci · 03-08-2015, 10:19 PM

(03-08-2015 10:11 PM)Dieter Wrote:
(03-08-2015 10:03 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote: God bless my favourite is not the HP-80! :p

Wait until the commemorative 9100A arrives. 8-)

Dieter

Eheheh... the 97 would be enough, I fear.

MarkMason · 03-09-2015, 04:43 PM

(03-08-2015 12:11 PM)MagyarBoy Wrote: .............................

Please let me know what you think. How did *you* learn to use the HP-35S, if you have one? Did you just pick it up and learn as you went, checking the official manual as needed? Or did you study the official manual, and learn that way? How did it go?

Thanks for your comments.

Is there a need for more awareness of RPN and HP calculators as a choice for first time buyers? With HPs disappearing from store shelves the brand may not even come to mind when a school aged purcheser is shopping. It's been so long since I was looking for my first scientific calculator I forget how I was even introduced to HP. At the time, the choices for a scientific calculator (square root, trig, etc) were pretty much just HP and TI, so one tended to shop those two brands.

It seems that there was and is a natural human aversion to a keyboard without an equals sign when first introduced. I would guess that most HP users had to overcome this "change" before adopting RPN. Looking back, it was but a small jump to a much more natural way of thinking. That being said, my fellow engineering students fell into 2 definate camps, about 60% TI, 40% HP. It seems like your mental orientation was compatable with either one or the other approach and it was rare to find a user that felt natural with both. Humans are funny.

I guess my question is: what percentage of potential scientific calculator users know of the RPN choice? And, do the HP models today that offer both RPN and Algebraic entry offer a bridge that allows a first time user to start out using the equals sign and explore RPN at his/her lesure. If this is a common path to RPN, then the question would become the availability and exposure of HP as a brand.

Mark

Don Shepherd · 03-09-2015, 05:08 PM

Thanks Mark. You have posed some interesting questions.

First, let me say upfront that I am not an engineer. I am a retired computer programmer who became a middle school math volunteer-teacher. So I am not at all qualified to discuss the calculating needs of engineers. But I think we are in the midst of another technological revolution that will have major impacts on calculators.

It seems to me that a newly-minted engineer coming out of college today is part of the i-generation. He or she undoubtedly has a smart phone with all kinds of apps on it, some of which are not games, hopefully. At some point--and I'm not saying we have reached that point yet--this engineer will probably have to decide which engineering app do I want for my tablet or smart phone or application for my PC, rather than which scientific calculator do I want to buy and use. Nobody used slide rules after the HP-35 came out. Nobody used typewriters after PC's and word processing came out (yes, I am aware that you can still find a few, mostly in old attorney's offices). I really think the calculator is a dinosaur just waiting to become extinct.

I doubt that many engineering students today even know what RPN stands for, and even if they did I doubt that they would view it as something they should learn and know, something that would help them in their career. It is a relic of the past, practiced today only among senior citizens like us on this forum and a few youngsters who have discovered it and like it. But for the mainstream, I think it is dead. Same with RPL.

Of course, I may be wrong!

TASP · 03-09-2015, 05:38 PM

My first exposure to HP calculators was the HP45. An upperclassman had one and it was quite the topic of discussion.

I had a TI-SR10 (IIRC) and a Commodore SR1400 (IIRC). At some point after it came out, I decided the HP-25 was at the right price point for me to get one. I still have it and it works. I've had a couple HP41s, and I am astonished at how 'primitive' the HP25 feels now, even though when I got it I was totally amazed. Since the 25 was programmable, it was clearly better than the 45. At $795, the 65 was just unapproachably expensive. I never knew anyone who had one, and to my knowledge, even to this day, I've never held one in my hands.

I consider an HP55, and thought it was really potent, but it was around 2X the price of the 25, so all I could do was look at the brochure and dream. The HP55 timer was a VERY appealing feature. When the Time Module came out for the 41 series, I was a happy camper; that was WAY better than a 55.

MarkMason · 03-10-2015, 02:58 AM

Don,

You are looking at a bigger picture than I was. Thanks for that perspective.

In 2011 I found myself assigned to train 2 new young engineers, we were all working on an extended new plant startup. Both were about 2-4 years out of school. One received permission to purchase aps for his company smart phone. Seems like steam tables and heat transfer were a couple of the ones he had.

The other used his smart phone for lots of daily stuff, but I don't remember him calculating with it. He had an HP 48 series on his desk, obviously left over from his school days which he used occasionally.

Like most technical workplaces, the most used tool was MS Excel, which we pretty much used for everything. The biggest advantage of that software for us was being able e-mail your calculations to someone else, as well as save a copy for future reference. The major disadvantages were portability while in the field and numerical entry, which my HP 32S did much better. (as an aside, both young men could not be broken of the habit of completely filling in every cell of the spreadsheet with all colors of the spectrum, I guess they never had to purchase printer toner)

So these most recent experiences would tend to support your assessment.

Darn, there's nothing like using good HP calculator keys, and while sitting in meetings, running some numbers to answer various questions that come up is a lot faster on the calculator. But this preference of mine is probably just referring back to what I'm used to.

Could we please hear from any of the members of this forum who are still in school and never use a calculator?.....(probably on a different forum!!!) Have you been able to get a smart phone or tablet to do all the portable calculation jobs you want?

Mark

**Katie Wasserman** · 03-10-2015, 03:11 AM

(03-09-2015 05:08 PM)Don Shepherd Wrote: But for the mainstream, I think it is dead. Same with RPL.

I think you're right with some some pockets of exception hanging on. I'm thinking of the real estate and financial people that still buy and use the 12C. At some of my clients new hires are handed a new 12C at their first day on the job, defying all attempts to change that by HP with their later financial calculators that had RPN as an optional mode. Of course they could just run one of many 12C emulators on their smart phones, but I don't see them doing that.

Tugdual · 03-10-2015, 04:50 AM

(03-09-2015 05:08 PM)Don Shepherd Wrote: Thanks Mark. You have posed some interesting questions.

First, let me say upfront that I am not an engineer. I am a retired computer programmer who became a middle school math volunteer-teacher. So I am not at all qualified to discuss the calculating needs of engineers. But I think we are in the midst of another technological revolution that will have major impacts on calculators.

It seems to me that a newly-minted engineer coming out of college today is part of the i-generation. He or she undoubtedly has a smart phone with all kinds of apps on it, some of which are not games, hopefully. At some point--and I'm not saying we have reached that point yet--this engineer will probably have to decide which engineering app do I want for my tablet or smart phone or application for my PC, rather than which scientific calculator do I want to buy and use. Nobody used slide rules after the HP-35 came out. Nobody used typewriters after PC's and word processing came out (yes, I am aware that you can still find a few, mostly in old attorney's offices). I really think the calculator is a dinosaur just waiting to become extinct.

I doubt that many engineering students today even know what RPN stands for, and even if they did I doubt that they would view it as something they should learn and know, something that would help them in their career. It is a relic of the past, practiced today only among senior citizens like us on this forum and a few youngsters who have discovered it and like it. But for the mainstream, I think it is dead. Same with RPL.

Of course, I may be wrong!

My son is currently in an engineer school and I gave him my prime. He really enjoys it but doesn't use RPN at all. The second thing he uses is a PC but there's nothing like phone or tablet.
He confirmed that he is the only one with a HP but he also said that as soon as he was seen with a finger on the touch screen, all other students were fascinated. So the prime is fascinating but not very strong on the market, may be a matter of advertisement?
I enjoy RPN but the day you start coding a macro language, you find yourself converting algebraic expressions into RPN because that is the way a microprocessor executes calculations. So I have always wondered if RPN was not actually less powerful and closer to cpu. Nobody goes naturally to RPN.
Having discovered recently RPL, I think it is definitely the ultimate state of rpn applied to coding. But lets face the reality: this is really a fascinating abomination. Still rpl is suited for handled machines, possibly better than keystrokes languages. For the same reason I don't like the prime because basic is not adapted to handled machine and I believe the expectation is that code is entered on a companion PC.
One essential aspect of a calculator is the keyboard and I don't think tablets and phones are going to replace that. RPN is possibly a relic of the past but I prefer to consider it as a valid alternative to algebraic entry.

JimP · 03-10-2015, 04:54 AM

This may be a silly point, but aren't there a bunch of "tutorial" - like pdfs available from HP for the 35S? (there was a whole raft of them for the HP50g and the HP17BII+ as I recall, sort of specialist how-to-do-certain things made a bit easier.) It wouldn't cover all the bases, for sure, but it might be a start.